[Lilliputian]

Let's start with a post that's been making the rounds the last couple of days.

https://x.com/kitten_beloved/status/1783527602948571489

It's written by a woman so presumably the statistics cited are incorrect or misinterpreted, but the popularity seems to indicate that there's a general sentiment that modern literature's unpopular, unread, and uninteresting. If you check the QT's you see the usual resentful mediocrities coping with it therapeutically, e.g. Logo_Daedalus claiming that because the average book apparently sells fewer than 12 copies, his self-published chapbooks (easily outsold by the likes of doonvorcanon) are actually in the top 95% of literary popularity. "If I'm unread, the art is dead." seems to be a prevailing revenge impulse of all failed intellectuals, so there's a sense of faux-grim glee in seeing cold hard data that it's hopeless for everyone else too. The resentiment's disgusting, so to combat it, I thought I'd make this thread.

Literature's at a strange sort of crossroads right now. On the one hand the dominant social medium is text-based social media, so you have more "readers" than at any other point in recent history, certainly more than the second half of the 20th century, when the dominant medium was television. But on the other no one seems to be reading any new literature, disincentivizing young talent (based or otherwise) from trying their hand at it, and creating a publishing longhouse of languour, fermentation, nepotism, and decay that's only amenable to femalekikenigger authors selling to femalekikenigger readerships. Obviously you have the tremendous success of BAP, 0HP, DT, et al proving that white male literature still sells, but I don't think this shock comedy literature of self-conscious dissidence is enough. It's a great place to start, and the cultural impact & money of it is of course inspiring, but their niche is already overcrowded and they seem to have all of their potentialities on lockdown. If I were a young writer myself, I'd want to move outwards and away from them, stake some space out for myself. This might look like the traditional self-publishing/self-promo arc we've seen, it might look like infiltration of legacy media, it might involve appealing to a readership of true believers, it might involve redpilling normies, the point is that there has to be an outward expansion. The alternative is emulation & oversaturation of stylistic/narrativistic/thematic principles that the Gen-X/Early Millenial dissidents have already laid claim to.

So what are the potentialities? What's there for us to exploit, to lay claim to? How do you write something vital, exciting, and new? And how do you use it to win money and fame?

[FlyWithYou]

So what are the potentialities?

You tell me. Got any book ideas?

[anthony]

I may have already brought up that books have succeeded by being put up for free online. All books are de facto free to read online already. I would say leaning into that is the way to go. Write a book, give it away, then sell the physical book as a form of merchandise, or a premium supporter gift.

[Promise-Ring]

So what are the potentialities? What's there for us to exploit, to lay claim to? How do you write something vital, exciting, and new? And how do you use it to win money and fame?

There are several problems here. Most simple of which is that literature is a dead medium. Books as a means of disseminating ideas? That's ridiculous on the face of it, we have forums now. As for novels, I think we gave up the general sense of civilization and fineness that makes fine arts possible a long time ago. A novel is a complex thing, but even something like a short story, are there any westerners living a fine enough life to enable the creation of something actually within the tradition of western literature? Are there even westerners being truly cultivated in this tradition? I'm not so sure. The potential for these things to emerge naturally doesn't seem to exist, and I do not desire to read an unnaturally conjured novel of undead-pastiche.

To avoid saying the same thing I do in nearly all of my posts here, I'll quote Anthony saying that same thing in in a relevant context:

A thought that keeps occurring to me is that already to some extent the Japanese are serving the vital role of keeping a memory and tradition of who we are alive for us during dark times. They're like the Irish monks holding onto literacy while civilisation collapses. Of course we aren't collapsing like Rome, but we have fallen apart on several key fronts. Culturally especially. All of the greatest pop-cultural depictions of our own past are Japanese. The only people making pop-art that speaks to the young white soul are Japanese. If we want white popular literature again in the future we'll probably be taking more from Ryukishi07 than... Houellebecq?

To answer your question: We don't attempt an awkward revitalization (pointless imitation) of the Fine Arts. We take from the actually living tradition and create Pop Art (if you want to be mean you can call if vulgar art, and if you're like me you can call it Expressive Art). We create Visual Novels. It's not as if this is an unattainable fantasy idea. It happened not too long ago, under the dark reign of Obama no less:



Now, a few images from an artist on Katawa Shoujo:

[Guest]

Not exactly literature, but I feel that I bring something of interest to the thread.

Dwarsligger

Dwarsliggers are these Dutch books with really thin paper that were made to open sideways for one-handed reading. I think this innovation with the format could allow the Anglo-sphere to gain something similar to what the Japanese have with lightnovels; a boom with (male) youth readership that will allow more writers to rise above obscurity and diversify the current market. The YA scene is simply not for boys. The only kids (male) I knew who read in high school either read Stephen King (gross) or anime fan-fiction. As a male teen you’re simply not targeted for reading. America may not be a literate country, but I feel there is an untapped market purposefully neglected.

[FlyWithYou]

Most simple of which is that literature is a dead medium. Books as a means of disseminating ideas? That's ridiculous on the face of it, we have forums now. As for novels, I think we gave up the general sense of civilization and fineness that makes fine arts possible a long time ago. A novel is a complex thing, but even something like a short story, are there any westerners living a fine enough life to enable the creation of something actually within the tradition of western literature? Are there even westerners being truly cultivated in this tradition? 

There's no easier tradition to get familiar with on your own. All of it is written out, literally. If it's dead now, it's no more dead than it was in the first place, at the time of printing.

[Promise-Ring]

There's no easier tradition to get familiar with on your own. All of it is written out, literally. If it's dead now, it's no more dead than it was in the first place, at the time of printing.

It's only my culture in that genetically similar people were responsible for it. But that doesn't explain even close to anything. Japanese in North and South America are to my knowledge, literally entirely irrelevant in Anime, Video Games, Manga, and though I have less familiarity with the subject I have heard nothing to suggest they have contributed to Japanese fine arts. Similarly I do not live in the culture that created Western literature of note. I grew up on Japanese things. That doesn't make it my own, but it's certainly less foreign to me than Western writing from even the 18th and 19th centuries. Even for westerners who didn't grow up on Japanese things, I still feel they're closer to Japan pop media than old western literature. It's a natural medium for the expression of an infinite amount of desire and rage welling up within people born into the anti-culture we find ourselves in. Ignoring this to pretend we're somewhere we're not, is not.

[FlyWithYou]

There's no easier tradition to get familiar with on your own. All of it is written out, literally. If it's dead now, it's no more dead than it was in the first place, at the time of printing.

Similarly I do not live in the culture that created Western literature of note. I grew up on Japanese things. That doesn't make it my own, but it's certainly less foreign to me than Western writing from even the 18th and 19th centuries. Even for westerners who didn't grow up on Japanese things, I still feel they're closer to Japan pop media than old western literature. It's a natural medium for the expression of an infinite amount of desire and rage welling up within people born into the anti-culture we find ourselves in. Ignoring this to pretend we're somewhere we're not, is not.

Myself, I like both a lot. I don't think liking old books is pretending you're somewhere you're not any more than liking Japanese anime is.

[Promise-Ring]

Myself, I like both a lot. I don't think liking old books is pretending you're somewhere you're not any more than liking Japanese anime is.

Appreciating something is completely different from being the one creating it.

[FlyWithYou]

Myself, I like both a lot. I don't think liking old books is pretending you're somewhere you're not any more than liking Japanese anime is.

Appreciating something is completely different from being the one creating it.

That's within my capacity.

[Guest]

In the middle of a crowd on a soapbox stood a wannabe socialist demagogue hoping to foment the poor, simple workers into a riot. This man was Noah Goldman; son of a wealthy banking family. Noah, through his wild ambitions, had developed a mordant, vulgar rhetoric that was especially efficacious at riling up factory workers. As Noah went on with his usual routine an unforeseen oddity arose.

“In this life who has not suffered, who has not—“ stopped Noah as he stared at the raised hand among the dense crowd. Noah then went to single this man out, whom dared to mock his oration. “You there, are you trying to say you’ve never fucking suffered? That you’re one of those those fucking privileged sort who live a fucking sumptuous life on the fucking back of others. Who from the moment of their birth only know the fucking best the fucking lord has to offer. Are you really fucking claiming you haven’t suffered a fucking day?”

“Well, not that you mentioned it, I’m suffering right now with you yelling at me.” 

[someone else continue]

[Quoid]

 Stephen King (gross)

I agree.

There are two types of realist. There is the one who offers a good deal of dirt with his potato to show that it is a real one, and the one who is satisfied with the potato brushed clean. I’m inclined to be the second kind. To me, the thing that art does for life is to clean it, to strip it to form.

Stephen King is the type of realist to drag the potato through manure and then lie to you and say he found it that way. He maybe a horror author, but part of his concept of horror is a mixing of verisimilitude with the weird like a counterpoise. His fixation on adding gratuitous grossness to mundane events as proof of its plausibility is probably one of his most annoying flaws as a writer.

[Guest]

I may have already brought up that books have succeeded by being put up for free online. All books are de facto free to read online already. I would say leaning into that is the way to go. Write a book, give it away, then sell the physical book as a form of merchandise, or a premium supporter gift.

Ok, but where? (This is an open question to anyone who can answer) Now, releasing stuff on right-wing channels seems the best for advertising if you already have a presence (audience) but personally, as a nobody, how does one release their book online for non-associated audiences? Additionally, if the book becomes popular in a small sphere first it can later be advertised through these right-wing channels, but the reverse shows a harder attempt—can’t get the normies to read my nazi book (book loved by online nazis).

Thus I propose the question: where (on what website or platform) does one release their content to get popular? When considering this answer remember that there are no deep-depth miners looking to take gems to the surface.

[thankyoucomeagain]

Ok, but where? (This is an open question to anyone who can answer) Now, releasing stuff on right-wing channels seems the best for advertising if you already have a presence (audience) but personally, as a nobody, how does one release their book online for non-associated audiences? Additionally, if the book becomes popular in a small sphere first it can later be advertised through these right-wing channels, but the reverse shows a harder attempt—can’t get the normies to read my nazi book (book loved by online nazis).

Thus I propose the question: where (on what website or platform) does one release their content to get popular? When considering this answer remember that there are no deep-depth miners looking to take gems to the surface.

If your book is fantasy or science fiction, you can released it as a serialized web novel on sites like Royal Road, and later sell it as a book on amazon. People on such sites are willing to dig very deep to get to "under-rated" series. I know two author friends who've managed to do this and later get enough of a reader audience to sell more political books, albeit still novels. 

Now for anything else, especially something philosophical like BAM, you don't really have an option other than building your audience on Xitter or Youtube first. I believe that for such work, in order to convince anybody that your work is worth reading over 3000+ years of renowned literature, they have to be interested in you as a character first. This is even true, unfortunately, for most historical authors now, normies do not pick up literature for their value as information or analysis, they get interested in the author as a character first. 

There is a tougher option, which is to write articles first and publish them to any magazines that accept such submissions. But I don't know how successful this is. There is a Japanese translator named C. Shujin who published good articles on REN's magazine, which was very successful, but unfortunately his xitter engagement was still zero aside from me last time I checked. And this is still just an attempt to sell yourself as a character through a more literary medium, that's all.

All of these are small spheres, but books spread by word of mouth from small spheres to normies, this happens in waves.

[august]

I'm in complete agreement with @Promise-Ring and I think that the first paragraph that he typed in this thread couldn't have been put any better. In my own experience, a guy from school told me that he is a science fiction author, and when I checked out his work later on I saw that he actually has a multi-volume series, 300-some pages each book. I'd say he has, on the lot of it, a couple handfuls of ratings and reviews on the series altogether. Now, I don't think that his goal was massive fame and acclaim. If it was he'd be on social medias or youtube doing something cheaper. But I guess that's the whole point. That's someone who is self-publishing his own work to an audience of readers that's even less than he would have if he just posted the same stuff on this Forum. 

As for this certain FlyWithYou.... you're just saying the same thing that you did in the "Revitalization of the Arts" thread about classical music. Just because you like something doesn't change the fact that the cultural conditions that existed to bring it to fruition then not only don't exist today, but have become been made explicitly inverted. Even after attempts were made to tell you this in that thread, you nodded along to what anthony said only to clearly wind up not understanding it as you doubled down on your conflating of appreciation of a thing with the vitality of it, both in that thread and again here. It's not about merely "liking" old books or classical music. Good on you! Look at the Forum that you're posting on. Nearly everyone here probably really likes and appreciates these things. That doesn't mean that the mediums aren't dead or dying. This thread and the other one wouldn't exist if it weren't the case.

[GreenG]

As for this certain FlyWithYou.... you're just saying the same thing that you did in the "Revitalization of the Arts" thread about classical music. Just because you like something doesn't change the fact that the cultural conditions that existed to bring it to fruition then not only don't exist today, but have become been made explicitly inverted. Even after attempts were made to tell you this in that thread, you nodded along to what anthony said only to clearly wind up not understanding it as you doubled down on your conflating of appreciation of a thing with the vitality of it, both in that thread and again here. It's not about merely "liking" old books or classical music. Good on you! Look at the Forum that you're posting on. Nearly everyone here probably really likes and appreciates these things. That doesn't mean that the mediums aren't dead or dying. This thread and the other one wouldn't exist if it weren't the case.

What are the cultural conditions? Very lazy of you to just throw out this term. No, classical music cannot be compare to literature. Not in mode of enjoyment; not in production or execution; not in the fundamental limitations of the art. You have savants being born all the time that grow into apt—although still irrelevant in a historic way—composers. The same does not happen for novelists or writers. The same argument does not work—which you will know if you ever manage to unpack what the “cultural conditions” are. Your post is just babble until you can explain the term for both.

It should be pointed out that Herman Melville nearly ruined himself economically when trying to publish his masterpiece Moby Dick. The American literature scene was fraught with corruption, laziness, and every hinderance to genius when Edger Allen Poe wrote this Essay (1839; and Herman finish Moby Dick in 1850). I can’t speak for other fields, but your “cultural conditions” just don’t apply in the same way to literature.

In my own experience, a guy from school told me that he is a science fiction author, and when I checked out his work later on I saw that he actually has a multi-volume series, 300-some pages each book. I'd say he has, on the lot of it, a couple handfuls of ratings and reviews on the series altogether. Now, I don't think that his goal was massive fame and acclaim. If it was he'd be on social medias or youtube doing something cheaper. But I guess that's the whole point. That's someone who is self-publishing his own work to an audience of readers that's even less than he would have if he just posted the same stuff on this Forum.

I’m not going to ask you for a link because you know this guy IRL, but was it actually any good? It seems all women have this retarded compulsion to write but ended up writing shit. How do you know this guy’s stuff just doesn’t suck? Especially in the fact that he’s a fellow student. Isaac Asimov was both a professor and 30 when he wrote his first Sci-Fi novel. Especially if this guy isn’t some literature major: it probably sucks. Asimov has wonderful prose and knows how to write.

[FlyWithYou]

I'm in complete agreement with @Promise-Ring and I think that the first paragraph that he typed in this thread couldn't have been put any better. In my own experience, a guy from school told me that he is a science fiction author, and when I checked out his work later on I saw that he actually has a multi-volume series, 300-some pages each book. I'd say he has, on the lot of it, a couple handfuls of ratings and reviews on the series altogether. Now, I don't think that his goal was massive fame and acclaim. If it was he'd be on social medias or youtube doing something cheaper. But I guess that's the whole point. That's someone who is self-publishing his own work to an audience of readers that's even less than he would have if he just posted the same stuff on this Forum. 

As for this certain FlyWithYou.... you're just saying the same thing that you did in the "Revitalization of the Arts" thread about classical music. Just because you like something doesn't change the fact that the cultural conditions that existed to bring it to fruition then not only don't exist today, but have become been made explicitly inverted. Even after attempts were made to tell you this in that thread, you nodded along to what anthony said only to clearly wind up not understanding it as you doubled down on your conflating of appreciation of a thing with the vitality of it, both in that thread and again here. It's not about merely "liking" old books or classical music. Good on you! Look at the Forum that you're posting on. Nearly everyone here probably really likes and appreciates these things. That doesn't mean that the mediums aren't dead or dying. This thread and the other one wouldn't exist if it weren't the case.

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/...0195394207
https://store.doverpublications.com/prod...0486224619

[august]

What are the cultural conditions?

You know exactly what I meant by "cultural conditions". They are (1) exactly what you think they are, and (2) what I felt were so obvious that they didn't even need explaining. What should've also been obvious to you is that my entire post was my own extension of what @Promise-Ring said in "the first paragraph that he typed in this thread". If you didn't like the phrase "cultural conditions" then my apologies. Still, it wasn't that hard to figure out what I meant by it faggot. It was a nice attempt though, latching onto that specifically as your basis and then just going for it.

Your sentences are far too short and contain far too few commas for you to be who you claim to be. Whoever you are, you should log in and post on the account that you clearly have instead of pretending to be that other retard.

[GreenG]

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/...0195394207
https://store.doverpublications.com/prod...0486224619

Writing baroque music without anyone to play it is stupid. Yes, no one is stopping you, but also sheet music in itself is useless. You can spread a manuscript around online and it can be enjoyed. Not the same for sheet music. 
Where’s your orchestra retard?

[Virtue]

{Implying it needs to be "played" by "humans"
{Implying there is a necessity for a baroque orchestra for baroque music to be played

Who are you? A brute from the 20th century? Have you heard of Touhou before?