[FlyWithYou]

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

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Writing baroque music without anyone to play it is stupid. Yes, no one is stopping you, but also sheet music in itself is useless. You can spread a manuscript around online and it can be enjoyed. Not the same for sheet music. 
Where’s your orchestra retard?

It's on my computer

[GreenG]

You know exactly what I meant by "cultural conditions". They are (1) exactly what you think they are, and (2) what I felt were so obvious that they didn't even need explaining. What should've also been obvious to you is that my entire post was my own extension of what @Promise-Ring said in "the first paragraph that he typed in this thread".

Lol, ok nigger monkey retard coward. Be like that you fucking little bitch. His point was stupid as well.

A novel is a complex thing, but even something like a short story, are there any westerners living a fine enough life to enable the creation of something actually within the tradition of western literature? Are there even westerners being truly cultivated in this tradition?

Yes, this is stupid. First off western literature is not specifically defined and you in your retarded example (I’m talking about you august(added this because I knew you’d be too stupid to understand what I am writing)) use your classmates amateur Sci-Fi novel, so it if we go by that criteria then his point is stupid. Again, both your points are these nebulous “moods” without any specification. You have no idea what your talking about. Promise-Ring is going to have to offer examples for him to have some point.

[GreenG]

It's on my computer

This irritated my ears. This in not going to work, it sucks. I don’t think you’ve ever heard a orchestra in real life.

[Jailer of Love]

What are the cultural conditions? Very lazy of you to just throw out this term. No, classical music cannot be compare to literature. Not in mode of enjoyment; not in production or execution; not in the fundamental limitations of the art. You have savants being born all the time that grow into apt—although still irrelevant in a historic way—composers. The same does not happen for novelists or writers. The same argument does not work—which you will know if you ever manage to unpack what the “cultural conditions” are. Your post is just babble until you can explain the term for both.

It should be pointed out that Herman Melville nearly ruined himself economically when trying to publish his masterpiece Moby Dick. The American literature scene was fraught with corruption, laziness, and every hinderance to genius when Edger Allen Poe wrote this Essay (1839; and Herman finish Moby Dick in 1850). I can’t speak for other fields, but your “cultural conditions” just don’t apply in the same way to literature.

Herman Melville LIVED IN 19TH CENTURY AMERICA. We don't. He also went whaling in 19th century America. We can't. People now are having dull miserable experiences in dull miserable countries. Those people aren't going to write things like Herman Melville off the back of past memories. Even in places with greater civilizational inertia, like Western Europe. None of that compares to actually living in it like Herman Melville did. The direction of feeling needed to escape these current circumstances is the same as the natural direction art made to do so will move: The Explosion of Willpower needed to overcome one's own entire existence!

[Jailer of Love]

I’m not going to ask you for a link because you know this guy IRL, but was it actually any good? It seems all women have this retarded compulsion to write but ended up writing shit. How do you know this guy’s stuff just doesn’t suck? Especially in the fact that he’s a fellow student. Isaac Asimov was both a professor and 30 when he wrote his first Sci-Fi novel. Especially if this guy isn’t some literature major: it probably sucks. Asimov has wonderful prose and knows how to write.

Yes, this is stupid. First off western literature is not specifically defined and you in your retarded example (I’m talking about you august(added this because I knew you’d be too stupid to understand what I am writing)) use your classmates amateur Sci-Fi novel, so it if we go by that criteria then his point is stupid. Again, both your points are these nebulous “moods” without any specification. You have no idea what your talking about. Promise-Ring is going to have to offer examples for him to have some point.

August brought up the amateur Sci-Fi novel to demonstrate the fruitlessness of publishing a book specifically. Even for things that suck, it is a wholly inefficient route. He would certainly have found even greater success than publishing his works on a forum had he written Fanfiction or something similar. All Fanfiction seems to suck, but writing a science fiction novel now is basically re-releasing the work of past authors with your name on it. Fanfiction here seems a far more intuitive form for the given writer. That is sucks however is the far greater issue. But what do you expect from someone young living today?

[FlyWithYou]

This irritated my ears. This in not going to work, it sucks. I don’t think you’ve ever heard a orchestra in real life.

I'm sure you've heard electronic music before that you liked the sound of. Use your imagination.

[GreenG]

Herman Melville LIVED IN 19TH CENTURY AMERICA. We don't. He also went whaling in 19th century America. We can't. People now are having dull miserable experiences in dull miserable countries. Those people aren't going to write things like Herman Melville off the back of past memories. Even in places with greater civilizational inertia, like Western Europe. None of that compares to actually living in it like Herman Melville did. The direction of feeling needed to escape these current circumstances is the same as the natural direction art made to do so will move: The Explosion of Willpower needed to overcome one's own entire existence!

Concessions, concession, where shall I make my concessions. First let’s evaluate how much of Moby Dick was inspired from Herman Melville’s experience as a whaler and from his own personal artistic excellency. 

Did you know Melville was captured by cannibals and lived as their hostage for a time? Yeah, he made a book about it called Typee. It was semi interesting, but lacked any of the philosophical speculations, aspects of tragedy, or artfulness found in Moby Dick. This is what a novel looks like that comes straight from experience. Prosaic and dull. Still kinda interesting if you want to see the effects of Stockholm syndrome. 

Now take Moby Dick: a fanciful tale filled with allegory. If we analyze Moby Dick we have three distinct qualities: autistic analysis of whaling; philosophical/poetic speculation on concepts such as whiteness or dragon slaying; and a gripping tragedy with characters doomed to die with whiffs of comedy about. Now, only the autistic analysis can be said to be purely inspired by Melvilles experience as a whaler; the most prosaic and dull part that they cut in the edition they published in Britain—still fascinating and an integral part of the book, but no explosion of the will like you want. 

The other parts are heavily inspired by philosophy (Melville name drops a bunch of philosophers he’s read in the book) and from Greek tragedy and comedy and some parts from (Greek) mythology ( although only in a superficial way) and Christian mythology. All in all I would rule that his book’s power of will comes from his cultural understanding; which is not exclusive to his time (at least not all of it (some things have been lost)). 

But yeah, modern life is dull. I’ve heard lobster fishing is extremely dangerous. Maybe you could go up north to Alaska and try that if you want. Live In dangerous poverty like Melville. Have you every seen any of the lobster fishing TV shows; very exciting. Not that lobstering can substitute for whaling, but whaling is harder to get into now a days (not non-existent).

[Guest]

This irritated my ears. This in not going to work, it sucks. I don’t think you’ve ever heard a orchestra in real life.

I'm sure you've heard electronic music before that you liked the sound of. Use your imagination.

Not the point. Speakers just don’t sound the same. Yeah, it has its nice qualities but it can’t really fulfill what it’s meant to be. But, I’ll cede. Follow your dreams. Maybe you’ll get a personal orchestra when we win.

[Virtue]

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

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Writing baroque music without anyone to play it is stupid. Yes, no one is stopping you, but also sheet music in itself is useless. You can spread a manuscript around online and it can be enjoyed. Not the same for sheet music. 
Where’s your orchestra retard?

It's on my computer

A good interpretation for people with taste. Conducted by VON Karajan, see how superior it is to Japslop. Oh my science, the guy who posted this on youtube even has a Wagner avi...

[FlyWithYou]

A good interpretation for people with taste. Conducted by VON Karajan, see how superior it is to Japslop. Oh my science, the guy who posted this on youtube even has a Wagner avi...

Kind of sluggish

[FlyWithYou]

[Guest]

Litcels are seething smh

[Lilliputian]

So what are the potentialities? What's there for us to exploit, to lay claim to? How do you write something vital, exciting, and new? And how do you use it to win money and fame?

There are several problems here. Most simple of which is that literature is a dead medium. Books as a means of disseminating ideas? That's ridiculous on the face of it, we have forums now. As for novels, I think we gave up the general sense of civilization and fineness that makes fine arts possible a long time ago. A novel is a complex thing, but even something like a short story, are there any westerners living a fine enough life to enable the creation of something actually within the tradition of western literature? Are there even westerners being truly cultivated in this tradition? I'm not so sure. The potential for these things to emerge naturally doesn't seem to exist, and I do not desire to read an unnaturally conjured novel of undead-pastiche.

To avoid saying the same thing I do in nearly all of my posts here, I'll quote Anthony saying that same thing in in a relevant context:

A thought that keeps occurring to me is that already to some extent the Japanese are serving the vital role of keeping a memory and tradition of who we are alive for us during dark times. They're like the Irish monks holding onto literacy while civilisation collapses. Of course we aren't collapsing like Rome, but we have fallen apart on several key fronts. Culturally especially. All of the greatest pop-cultural depictions of our own past are Japanese. The only people making pop-art that speaks to the young white soul are Japanese. If we want white popular literature again in the future we'll probably be taking more from Ryukishi07 than... Houellebecq?

To answer your question: We don't attempt an awkward revitalization (pointless imitation) of the Fine Arts. We take from the actually living tradition and create Pop Art (if you want to be mean you can call if vulgar art, and if you're like me you can call it Expressive Art). We create Visual Novels. It's not as if this is an unattainable fantasy idea. It happened not too long ago, under the dark reign of Obama no less:



Now, a few images from an artist on Katawa Shoujo:

If it wasn't clear in the OP, I'm using a non-qualitative definition of literature here, "literature" as in "long-form narrative prose." If I meant it otherwise I'd be putting Delicious Tacos and Zero H.P. Lovecraft on par with Fielding or Turgenev, which would be absurd. The continuity of great artists linking Chaucer to Shakespeare to Henry James to Joyce certainly seems to be broken, but this is temporary, new fetters can be forged, we can and will relink to the great continuity that binds us to Homer. Anything else is pessimistic faggotry. The problem that lies before us is the lack of cultural context. When someone makes something great, we can't trust anyone to tell us about it. All of our institutions are infiltrated, the average reader is cattle, etc.  if Goethe were alive today no one would be here to recognize him as Goethe, etc. But this is a temporal issue. The Dark Ages had their great writers too, they just weren't recognized for a few hundred years. 
Still, authors deserve to taste the fruits of their greatness within their lifespan. The quietist posture is usually just a prelude to giving up, telling yourself that you'll be "discovered" post-mortem like Melville and then never even starting your Moby Dick, which is why I'm emphasizing the necessity of the pursuit of worldly glory, even in a dark age.
If you search the name "Ottessa Moshfegh" on tiktok you'll find hundreds of organic mini-reviews, many of them with tens of thousands of views. This is an authoress in the sub-Nabokovian tradition of Brett Easton Ellis smut. As Literature (what she's trying to be) she seems to be a failure, but as mere literature, mere sequential narrative prose, she's a socioeconomic success story. For anyone in our thing, I think there's a real possibility here of encrypting Literature into literature, writing something that's both good and readable, slipping it past the censors and into the normie noosphere. It seems feasible because this is what this Iranian-Jewess was trying to do (based on what she's said in her interviews.) Her books even have some vaguely redpilled gender realist stuff in them, in that halfhearted Red Scare way a lot of female pseudo-intellectuals are doing it now. What we need, is an infiltrator, someone to demonstrate the power of great right wing art on a grander stage than online pseudonymity. In the same way that D.H. Lawrence, Joyce, and Henry Miller forced open a possibility space for sexual frankness in literature, we need someone to force open a possibility space for vitalism & eugenics, our stuff in other words, and in reinventing the acceptable range of literary subject matter, there will of course have to be a reinvention of form.
Your suggestion of re-occidentalizing oriental occidentalism (western light novels, virtual novels, etc.) is an interesting starting point. My instincts tell me it's essentially correct, as Japan makes some of the only worthwhile art anyone's willing to engage with today. But I'm not sure if works like katawa shoujo are quite enough. It's form is inextricable from the culture that birthed it. Simply doing what they have done isn't vital, it's an emulation of a foreign vitality, so once the novelty of "eroge but western" has worn off, all your left with is emulation. Japanese forms can only help us once they've been reinterpreted out of their essential Japaneseness and made Western. In other words they have to be culturally appropriated. I'm going to take some time to think through what this might look like (I'm almost certain the way Japanese art handles women is a large part of it), but this post's already rambly enough.

[Polytropos]

The problem that lies before us is the lack of cultural context. When someone makes something great, we can't trust anyone to tell us about it. All of our institutions are infiltrated, the average reader is cattle, etc. [/font][/color] if Goethe were alive today no one would be here to recognize him as Goethe, etc. But this is a temporal issue. The Dark Ages had their great writers too, they just weren't recognized for a few hundred years. [/font][/color][/size]

If Goethe were alive today I would recognize him as Goethe. We don't need institootions to direct us to work of quality, unless you hold a low opinion of your own taste. The notion of the "posthumously discovered artist" is also a meme and very much the exception to the rule, the majority of important figures in every field were appreciated in their lifetime. I agree with the rest of what you said about pessimism

I'm sympathetic to Jailer's view that the main impediment is the sterility of the modern world. Obviously, it takes more than experience to write good literature but it does take experience, not only le exciting whaling adventures but much more essentially encounters with different and complex human types. There are about 5 different normalfag types you can encounter in zogworld and all of them are aggressively dull. There is no interesting psychological material, there are no situations in which interesting drives can be found in free play or in violent conflict with one another. Ideas and conceptual games can only take you so far, Borges represents the absolute literary limit of that in my opinion and he is shallow.

Honestly, other than a Napoleon/Hitler Great Man comet or an apocalyptic overturning in ZOG world (granted, neither are wholly unlikely possibilites but they can't be counted on or predicted), I don't see any way out of this. The feeling of exhaustion, that Western culture was entering its final phase, was a common sentiment even prior to WW1. Chirico, Celine, Hesse, all expressed some version of this. Where do you even go with the novel or poetry after modernism? Celine derived his literary force from facing the encroaching nihilism of the West and describing it without reservation, this was in 1932, what do you even do now? We are living through the worst fears of the last generation worthy of being called artists.

[FlyWithYou]

Ideas and conceptual games can only take you so far, Borges represents the absolute literary limit of that in my opinion and he is shallow.

You take that back!

[Starn]

Many normaltypes probably do enjoy reading novels, and they'd even like the garbage ones made today. The issue, and where the stream that would carry Literature to mass culture breaks, is that none of them have anything intelligent to add. And thus the would—be chain ends with the first reader.
The archetypal Lord of the Rings "enjoyer" can only convey instinctive emotional responses, and vague discussions of themes and authorial intent. And even this is only done to defend it from brutish libtards.

A book is complete by default. A complete work requires lengthy, in-depth discussion to be discussed at all. No common human variant is capable of this. But they're capable of copying, and there's no stigma against Consideration... it is simply not done as they see no one else doing it. Though they're eager to follow. The literature that remains popular can trace its fame to intelligent men of decades past dictating their opinions, dissecting the art, and giving normies the framework to inspect it themselves. I suppose that makes those masses superfluous.

For examples of this, I'll point out Frankenstein, where for a few years Tumblrite remnants regurgitated fragments of ancient discussion, and 4chan/Twitter darling games such as New Vegas, where they endlessly regurgitate more recent discussions. Are they capable of more than tracing over the arguments of their betters? It's irrelevant when that's enough to enter the limelight.

This isn't a specific weakness of Literature. Everything completed, or released complete, suffers this. The most people can stutter is "dude you've gotta try it," or "that one scene sure was messed up/cool/sad". I haven't met anyone who had anything to say about Muv Luv or Fate beyond such trite words, but that's more than I've seen said about Hesse.
Without anyone who could speak on their behalf, Works of Literature/Non-Episodic Video Games/Standalone Movies are all doomed to be highly personal. And a novel only is its words, without other shinies to attract.

The workarounds are what Amarna has already mentioned. 0x49fa98's writings are personal, but his public visage gives something to latch onto, to stake territory in the collective conscious. Works released episodically are impersonal, as the delays give the masses time to think, dream of What Ifs, and develop their Community around it: Manga, a VN released in chapters, Webcomics, Gacha, TV Shows.
The simplest path to acclaim is to slow the pace for this gluttonous and obese world. We're fortunate this has no effect on quality.

A method of distributing a novel in that manner would make even bad works famous. I'm glad it hasn't been meaningfully invented yet; I wish to try the 'sow mental seeds' strategy for something more worthwhile, and it would muddy things.

... In a more total view, Polytropos is correct. Art cannot move forward until the world ends. Until then, even what's good will be repetitions and shifts of what was before.
I hope I can see something new, soon.

[Muskox]

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

Do you go on incel forums and try to inform them about jacking off?

[FlyWithYou]

There's nothing stopping us from writing books or writing baroque music. You seem to think that just because nobody else is doing it, it can't be done.

Do you go on incel forums and try to inform them about jacking off?

What I'm talking about is more like having sex I think.

[Recent Friend]

As if baroque instruments have a list of chaotic changing demands and can decide not to work on a whim. (Like getting consensual sex, in case you don't get the metaphor)

[Muskox]

As if baroque instruments have a list of chaotic changing demands and can decide not to work on a whim. (Like getting consensual sex, in case you don't get the metaphor)

Instruments with reeds are a bit like this honestly