Alpinid overrepresentation in long-term kidnapping + rape cases
#21
I wouldn't put much stock into cephalic index being a reliable way of determining racial ancestry. Most studies I've seen (which almost all come from eastern Europe or east Asia) indicate a strong decline in brachycephaly in just the last century.
#22
The brachycephalization in Eurasians population living on the plains (which is likely the byproduct of ‘domestication’) was a completely different process than the brachycephalization of European groups living in mountainous areas.
#23
What phenotype is having a skull that is very wide and squat (high FWHR), but back of the skull is fairly long and spherical?
#24
BillyONare Wrote:What phenotype is having a skull that is very wide and squat (high FWHR), but back of the skull is fairly long and spherical?

AFAIK Cro-Magnid skulls are distinguished by being wide-faced (euryprosopic) but long-skulled (dolichocephalic), at least according to Ripley in his The Races of Europe. There are a number of Cro-Magnid phenotypes, but Brunn and Dalo-Faelid are the purest. If it is Cro-Magnid, should probably be comorbid with a prominent brow ridge and general robustness.
#25
JohnnyRomero Wrote:[Image: m7814Fv.png]

Maybe a tad offtopic, but this map reminded me of an infograph I once made on the genetic history of Italy.

Basically during the Roman empire there was a massive inflow of MENA, which affected South Italy the most and is still measurable in GDP per capita, crime statistics, genetic ethnicity and educational attainment polygenic scores (EA4 PGS). My pet theory is that South Italy was affected most, because after the Hannibalic campaigns the South was devastated and they had to import massive amounts of slave labor to revive the economy there. Most slaves came from the Middle-East.

[Image: Itaalia-geeniajalugu.png]

It's a bit lazy image, sorry. It's not very presentable and there's no sources attached, but I figured it's interesting enough.
#26
KimKardashian Wrote:Maybe a tad offtopic, but this map reminded me of an infograph I once made on the genetic history of Italy.

Basically during the Roman empire there was a massive inflow of MENA, which affected South Italy the most and is still measurable in GDP per capita, crime statistics, genetic ethnicity and educational attainment polygenic scores (EA4 PGS). My pet theory is that South Italy was affected most, because after the Hannibalic campaigns the South was devastated and they had to import massive amounts of slave labor to revive the economy there. Most slaves came from the Middle-East.

[Image: Itaalia-geeniajalugu.png]

It's a bit lazy image, sorry. It's not very presentable and there's no sources attached, but I figured it's interesting enough.

This is a fashionable theory in these circles lately but it is not true. The large numbers of eastern slaves in Italy in the late Imperial period have left no genetic signature in modern Italians, as the middle graphic in your own post shows (which is from "Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean" by Antonio et al.). The genetic makeup of southern Italians has in all likelihood changed very little since antiquity and, very generally speaking, comprises around 15-25% steppe-related ancestry with almost all of the rest being sourced from pre-Italic populations which were essentially Early European Farmers with a notable non-steppe-related Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer component that is unique to parts of Southern Europe. There are other components which vary depending on location, like some Balkan contribution as well as a small amount of North African-like admixture which is present at low levels all over Italy but most frequent in Sicily (and almost certainly ancient). There is no Middle Eastern component. The components and their ratios are similar to the Mycenaean Greek samples analyzed in "Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" by Lazaridis et al.
#27
(11-27-2023, 07:11 PM)Muskox Wrote: People are far too hard on Alpinids...

True. Lombardy is one of the only non-meme and non-oriental places to openly fly the ancient symbol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunian_rose 

[Image: CQMKOGN.gif]

[Image: cuKD9pf.jpg]

(12-29-2023, 02:41 PM)KimKardashian Wrote: Basically during the Roman empire there was a massive inflow of MENA, which affected South Italy the most and is still measurable in GDP per capita, crime statistics, genetic ethnicity and educational attainment polygenic scores (EA4 PGS). My pet theory is that South Italy was affected most, because after the Hannibalic campaigns the South was devastated and they had to import massive amounts of slave labor to revive the economy there. Most slaves came from the Middle-East.

Unfortunately I'm going to sound like a faggot libtard for saying this but I'm increasingly convinced that the modern-day poverty, crime, and low education of the South is due to political mismanagement or neglect of the region over the last few centuries. IIRC the economy and trade from Sicilian cities like Palermo under Norman rule made it one of the richest regions in all of Europe. There also seems to be other factors in more modern times, unique to the already laggard region's political situation, that exacerbated many of the problems that were already present. For example, from the times of Napoleonic control until after Italian unification, political instability only made brigandage much worse. Brigand Life in Italy by Monnier gives a good history of the political instability during those times. The Moral Basis of a Backward Society by Edward Banfield, as recommended by @anthony, is also good from a 'social science' perspective:

[Image: LaaWxFX.png]

[Image: 5wDtCfO.png]



Anyway, one Italian who is somewhat interesting is Giorgia Meloni. Her paternal grandparents are Sardinian (grandfather) and Lombardian (grandmother), and her mother is Sicilian. I'm not the best at deeply evaluating phenotypes, so I include her father's parents here for the more well-versed raciologists:

[Image: 2F1RcnO.jpg]

What's funny is that while Meloni's Alpinid father didn't kidnap or rape anyone (to my knowledge), he did abandon the family when she was a baby and was convicted of drug-trafficking. Apparently, he was also a commie supporter. Like all women, her politics are the result of daddy issues, so it seems. 

Meloni herself is interesting, phenotypically. Sardinian, Lombardian, and Sicilian, but here she is next to a Nordid female phenotype:

[Image: P8AFtys.jpg]

I'm now realising that this post could probably fit better in "Physical Aspect", but whatever.
[Image: JBqHIg7.jpeg]
God helps those who help himself; I approve of that idea myself.
#28
Muskox Wrote:The large numbers of eastern slaves in Italy in the late Imperial period have left no genetic signature in modern Italians, as the middle graphic in your own post shows (which is from "Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean" by Antonio et al.).

If you look at the haplotype heatmap up top in the image (section A), you can see that Mediterranean (C6) contains not a small part of the slave populations of C4 and C5. The graph in section C is either ineptly or dishonestly put together, leaving the impression as if C4 and C5 slaves simply vanished after Late Antiquity, whereas in actuality they had intermixed into C6, while also the proportion of C6 from the whole population had increased.

It may also be relevant that the study relates only to Rome and its vicinity (Lazio), so while it may have been an immigrant magnet during the imperial years, after its decline it may have been less intermixed than South Italy.

[Image: nihms-1551077-f0004.jpg]

Muskox Wrote:The genetic makeup of southern Italians has in all likelihood changed very little since antiquity and, very generally speaking, comprises around 15-25% steppe-related ancestry with almost all of the rest being sourced from pre-Italic populations which were essentially Early European Farmers with a notable non-steppe-related Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer component that is unique to parts of Southern Europe.

I have very little knowledge of this, but the heatmap in question seems to indicate that Italian Neolithic and Copper Age got wiped off rather abruptly in the Iron Age (C3). This would seem to be corroborated by the other study included in the infograph: Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe. They also mention MENA in South Italy and Sicily, particularly related to the Arab conquests. But the article's so convoluted overall, I can't figure out whether MENA also includes Anatolian farmers. The sentence "relatively high amounts of Anatolian Neolithic (AN) contributions, ranging from 56% (SItaly1) to 72% (NItaly4)" seems to suggest that it doesn't, seeing that South Italy has lower AN despite having higher MENA.

I wonder how do they separate Anatolian Neolithic from overall Middle-Eastern, seeing that both originated from the Natufian? Did it contain some local Anatolian intermixture?

Muskox Wrote:"Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" by Lazaridis et al.

That article was such a blow for me when I read it. I was so confident I could find a similar mongrelization in Greece as in Italy that would help explain why they're such incompetent debtniggers now. Oh well, dysgenics don't require demographic replacement and can occur inside a single population as well. I've not gone down that rabbithole to demonstrate it, though.

august Wrote:Unfortunately I'm going to sound like a faggot libtard for saying this but I'm increasingly convinced that the modern-day poverty, crime, and low education of the South is due to political mismanagement or neglect of the region over the last few centuries.

I would never discount such factors even if genetic differences were implicated. As it happens though, genes do seem to be implicated: 

[Image: Untitled.png]

Educational attainment (EA4) polygenic scores (PGS) have been used as a proxy for IQ and seem to indicate a difference along the Italian peninsula. It's from the same study I included in my infograph for EA4 PGS: In Italy, North-South Differences in Student Performance Are Mirrored by Differences in Polygenic Scores for Educational Attainment.

We have totally hijacked the thread lol, sorry OP. It's a good discussion, definitely merits a separate thread sometime.
#29
On the Southern Italian social question, there's also the important matter of law and order to discuss. The older good times came with a massive and brutal prison system. My understanding is that the modern mafias were formed during the unification period when higher elements of society found themselves in these prisons for a while. They basically made deals and connections with the brutes of their society which endured into the new order and empowered a new lower order to establish itself. Then the fascists put them all in jail, then the Americans let them all out again (some kind of deal making again? I don't know. Maybe America planned to use them, maybe FDR's america was just a bunch of retarded animals incapable of good judgement).

Anyway point being, it may be largely socio-economic, but I can believe that it would probably require a lot more social force to bring out the best in southern italy than it would in say, The English. Might not need a full blown Bukele, but maybe something halfway to that could do some good.

[Image: Il-prefetto-di-ferro.jpg]
#30
KimKardashian Wrote:If you look at the haplotype heatmap up top in the image (section A), you can see that Mediterranean (C6) contains not a small part of the slave populations of C4 and C5. The graph in section C is either ineptly or dishonestly put together, leaving the impression as if C4 and C5 slaves simply vanished after Late Antiquity, whereas in actuality they had intermixed into C6, while also the proportion of C6 from the whole population had increased.

It may also be relevant that the study relates only to Rome and its vicinity (Lazio), so while it may have been an immigrant magnet during the imperial years, after its decline it may have been less intermixed than South Italy.

[Image: nihms-1551077-f0004.jpg]

It's inaccurate to say that the C6 population contains admixture from the C4 and C5 populations. A C6 population with higher affinity to Caucasian groups, as the graph shows, is exactly the result one would expect if the pre-Indo-European population of southern Italy were a Minoan-like group with some CHG ancestry. A relatively higher genetic affinity between two groups is not evidence of admixture from one to the other. A Middle Easterner would have a higher genetic affinity to a Bavarian than to a Fennoswede. This doesn't mean that Bavarians have MENA admixture.

There is quite a long discussion about this topic here. Obviously Jovialis and friends have an agenda, but I find their arguments convincing. The crux of the problem is the paucity of Neolithic and Iron Age samples from southern Italy. As you noted, there is a disproportionate number of samples from Lazio in that study. As far as I'm aware, there are zero samples from Oscan speaking groups in the south like the Samnites and Lucanians. Currently, people are looking at ancient samples from North and Central Italy, and comparing them to southern samples from the Medieval period on. Population replacement is a perfectly good explanation if one takes it on faith that these non-southern samples are representative of the ancient South. It is more likely, in my opinion, that the pre-Italic population of the South was simply a Minoan-like, CHG-enriched population. It's worth noting that the Ancient Greeks believed that the earliest inhabitants of southern Italy were Pelasgians who came from Greece. This would explain why the Mycenean-like C6 population shows up fully formed in the Imperial period (along with one outlier Iron Age sample from Rome), rather than later (as one might expect if it was the product of long-term interbreeding). I'm confident that as samples from Iron Age Italic groups in the South become available, they will show this to be true. In any case, were there large-scale genetic influence it would seem to be Greek rather than MENA.

KimKardashian Wrote:They also mention MENA in South Italy and Sicily, particularly related to the Arab conquests.

I cannot speak to Sicily as well (although I recall seeing a study where they tested Muslim and Christian burials and found that the two generally remained distinct), but I have done a lot of reading regarding Muslims in peninsular Italy, due to a particular surname in my family which actually has a very straightforward Italian origin, but bears a coincidental resemblance to an Arabic word. I would be extremely surprised if there were a Saracen genetic legacy anywhere in the peninsular South, let alone generally dispersed across it. Muslim presence was almost exclusively limited to bands of mercenaries brought in by various duchies and what-have-you for internecine conflicts, whose main interaction with the local population involved raiding and taking slaves. There were a few very short-lived attempts at creating Islamic states on the peninsula, most notably the Emirates of Bari and Taranto. Some towns in the interior such as Tricarico also saw brief periods of Islamic rule which are not well-recorded. Regardless, after the Norman conquest, Muslims across the South were treated like Jews. All the remaining Muslims in Sicily were resettled in a few towns on the peninsula, separate from Christians, before eventually being expelled from Italy altogether.

august Wrote:Unfortunately I'm going to sound like a faggot libtard for saying this but I'm increasingly convinced that the modern-day poverty, crime, and low education of the South is due to political mismanagement or neglect of the region over the last few centuries. IIRC the economy and trade from Sicilian cities like Palermo under Norman rule made it one of the richest regions in all of Europe. There also seems to be other factors in more modern times, unique to the already laggard region's political situation, that exacerbated many of the problems that were already present. For example, from the times of Napoleonic control until after Italian unification, political instability only made brigandage much worse. Brigand Life in Italy by Monnier gives a good history of the political instability during those times. The Moral Basis of a Backward Society by Edward Banfield, as recommended by @anthony, is also good from a 'social science' perspective:

[Image: LaaWxFX.png]

[Image: 5wDtCfO.png]

The Moral Basis of a Backward Society has been on my list since I saw it mentioned here. I read Christ Stopped at Eboli years ago but it is much less analytical. I'm willing to believe that the South's current situation is a combination of both factors to an extent, but generally I agree with you.

Here are a couple excerpts from a lesser-known work by Gramsci called The Southern Question among other things. Take it with a grain of salt, if you will, but I think Gramsci is one of the clearer thinkers as far as communists go.
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Unfortunately much of the conversation about Italians in DR circles is characterized by a sort of vulgar Nordicism, which infects the discussion about Alpinids here as well. People act as if anyone who isn't Nordic might as well be a nigger. Or that more steppe = better. If that were the case, modern Greeks would be superior to ancient Greeks. There is an unholy alliance of vulgar Nordicists and libtards which seeks to prove that modern Italians and Greeks are unrelated to ancient Romans and Greeks. The Normans settled Northerners from Piedmont all over the South, and today there are areas of Sicily and Basilicata where they speak Gallo-Italic languages. Linguists even consider many of the Neapolitan dialects of northern Basilicata to be strongly influenced by Gallo-Italic. Why not search for their genetic legacy? Northern Basilicata certainly has higher rates of blondism and light eyes than southern Basilicata. Why not search for Albanian genetic admixture? Some number of Albanians certainly assimilated rather than live in Arbëresh enclaves, and you can find Italians all over the South with Italianized Albanian names (like Musacchio, which comes from the noble Albanian Muzaka family). But there are a million attempts to prove that southern Italians are mongrelized with Arabs or Africans and that northern Italians are actually Germans. It's all nonsense. Propaganda. What matters is eugenics vs dysgenics. All the steppe-related ancestry in the world won't save a nation from dysgenic pressures.


EDIT: Just a little historical note on Gramsci's characterization of the south. The "democratic" role he ascribes to the northern intelligentsia and clergy was played also by their southern counterparts here and there prior to reunification. Maybe this was no longer true by his time. The establishment of the Parthenopean Republic in 1799 was eagerly participated in by many lawyers and clergymen. Priests were political and even military leaders. Much of what has been written about this event is very ideological and portrays the Republic as some kind of alien tyranny, but many parts of the country were firmly Republican and raised the tree of liberty before the French came anywhere near them.
#31
The near eastern admixture of south Italy predates Rome - Albanians are key here, due to their long isolation and remote position. Namely, in genetic analysis, you will see that the ancient Greeks cluster more with south Italians than modern Greeks (though only a little). The relatively unmixed Albanians do so as well.

Certain middle eastern affinities might be ascribed to the Carthaginians that controlled Sicily, but it was the Greeks who colonized the southern mainland. And if the genetics of this area is relatively unchanged since... A single conclusion imposes itself: we're dealing with a specific kind of "oldtroon European" here, without a doubt EEF-derived, but a different kind of EEF than the very much purely European sort that appears in modern Sardinians. One less "derived" from the basal western eurasian population. If you look at genetic clustering charts, you will see that Greek islanders, Cypriots, Maltese and Sicilians all fall somewhere in the middle between the near eastern cline and the European cluster, though more connected to the Europeans. In a way, they're "pure Mediterraneans."

Again, this predates Rome and the ancient empires - there are records of settling large amounts of Levantines in Italy, but not in Greece, or Cyprus. Therefore, the most likely option of how this occurred is that during the first large invasion of Europe by the early farmers, large parts of Anatolia were left desolate, and were settled by a more "basal Eurasian" farmer population, which then proceeded to colonize the various islands of the Aegean, Greece, and south Italy - places with the most typical Mediterranean climate. Linguistic evidence supports this - the Tyrsenian language family.

Therefore, the issue isn't that they changed in the meantime, but that they didn't change ever since the initial settling. They're very much "oldtroon Europeans"
#32
Muskox Wrote:This would explain why the Mycenean-like C6 population shows up fully formed in the Imperial period (along with one outlier Iron Age sample from Rome), rather than later (as one might expect if it was the product of long-term interbreeding).
Of the 11 samples from 900-27 BCE, none belong to the last several centuries of the republic (Supplementary table S2). If we take into account that the inflow of melanine was already well underway in the republic, and add to that the imperial period spanning until 300 CE, that's sufficient time for a fully intermixed C6 to appear in the empire. Besides, what else would you attribute the ongoing rise of C6 to, up to a millenium after the empire had fallen, if not continued intermixture?

Tenney Frank tried to figure out the proportions of Oriental slave populations in Italy through a sepulchral name analysis (1916), and came up with these figures: Rome 70%, Latium 64%, South Italy 53%, North Italy 46%. Now of course, he based his analysis on the assumption that Oriental slaves bore Greek names, seeing that Greeks were the slavers of the Mediterranean (and Romans of the barbarians). While this alone doesn't let us separate the Oriental slaves from the Southern Italian Greek natives, what helps us is that the slave names were regarded as extremely low status and anyone else avoided them. Then there's the correlation between these Greek names and the presence of (Eastern) mystery religions. Lastly, Frank also demonstrated that the slave fertility was higher than that of the natives. All this combined, what are the chances that this population would just vanish genetically, come Early Middle Ages? Especially seeing that the two genetic studies (this and that) seem to corroborate intermixture, with the first explicitly suggesting it.

Now, I may be wrong on this. I've not read any studies on the genetics of Southern Italy per se, especially of its similarity to (ancient) Greece. But it seems a hard sell for me that South Italy could've maintained a genetic identity through all that. Lets keep in mind that Greece never experienced being the hub of an international empire like Italy did, so its genetic stability isn't applicable here.

Svevlad Wrote:in genetic analysis, you will see that the ancient Greeks cluster more with south Italians than modern Greeks (though only a little).
Could you please link anything on it?
#33
KimKardashian Wrote:
Svevlad Wrote:in genetic analysis, you will see that the ancient Greeks cluster more with south Italians than modern Greeks (though only a little).
Could you please link anything on it?

https://twitter.com/TheLast_Gorilla/stat...4709042467
#34
KimKardashian Wrote:Tenney Frank tried to figure out the proportions of Oriental slave populations in Italy through a sepulchral name analysis (1916), and came up with these figures: Rome 70%, Latium 64%, South Italy 53%, North Italy 46%. Now of course, he based his analysis on the assumption that Oriental slaves bore Greek names, seeing that Greeks were the slavers of the Mediterranean (and Romans of the barbarians). While this alone doesn't let us separate the Oriental slaves from the Southern Italian Greek natives, what helps us is that the slave names were regarded as extremely low status and anyone else avoided them. Then there's the correlation between these Greek names and the presence of (Eastern) mystery religions. Lastly, Frank also demonstrated that the slave fertility was higher than that of the natives. All this combined, what are the chances that this population would just vanish genetically, come Early Middle Ages? Especially seeing that the two genetic studies (this and that) seem to corroborate intermixture, with the first explicitly suggesting it.

You have not read Antonio et al. carefully. The study speaks of "average ancestry" and such for places and times, not for individuals. It isn't saying that the average Imperial individual was 40% C5, 28% C4, etc. It is referring to discrete ancestry groups and the relative frequency at which individuals belonging to those groups are found. In fact, the study demonstrates that high inter-individual genetic diversity continues into Late Antiquity, which is precisely the opposite of what one would expect if there were high rates of intermarriage.

The simplest explanation is that the C6 cluster came about as a combination between Italics and a CHG-enriched pre-Italic population in the South. It is not a big leap of faith to imagine that the pre-Italic population of Southern Italy was similar to the pre-IE populations of Greece and the Balkans when a close relationship and multiple migration events between these places are extremely well-documented. Not to mention that this theory is corroborated by a Neolithic sample from Calabria. The idea that the C6 cluster must have come about as a result of later admixture from the East is predicated on the assumptions that the pre-Italic populations of the entire peninsula were functionally identical and that the southern populations must have also undergone the WHG resurgence seen in the North. There is not a shred of evidence to support these assumptions. Furthermore, it requires the belief that ancient Italians only mixed with slaves from an unknown ghost population and not with slaves from the Levant.

The fact of the matter is that we are not just talking about Naples here, we are talking about some of the most isolated, mountainous regions of the entire peninsula. Wondering how these areas could have remained largely unadmixed is like wondering why people in the Idaho Panhandle aren't part Hispanic. Doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that the cosmopolitan Imperial population would be replaced by unadmixed, rural populations after the collapse of the Empire and the ensuing period of strife and plague? At this point, I don't see much reason to assume otherwise. The point is basically moot until the genetic history of Southern Italy is studied in greater detail.



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