Anime is actually not that good
Reverend Moon Immortal
Ok, so to give the Forum a new thread and give @anthony a new outlet of catharsis I will be talking about how anime actually “sux” now.

I was a big anime fan in the past, the last time I enumerated the amount series I had watched it was in the 300s range. I say this because I want to emphasize that I am(was) a real anime fan. It used to be my favorite way to spend my time, yet eventually I just couldn’t watch it anymore. I had grown bored and tired of it. Why? It wasn’t until Anthony’s post that I was knocked out of my stupor and was able to realize why. 

With anime I think there is a divide between works with Vision and Passion vs more socially oriented ones. These works with vision have with them a deeper message that engages the watcher on a spiritual level. Then there are works made to be entertaining, they are held up by Japanese culture and the Japanese personality. Now keep in mind these categories are of extremes and artistic works usually fall somewhere between them. But I feel in recent years there has been a greater shift towards works that appeal to the Japanese culture and Japanese Personality side(social over individual) of thing. That these kind of works by nature of the Japanese personality are connected and influence each other in a feed back loop that relates to the current culture and past anime culture. I think the Japanese anime in recent years has had a large shift to this side and had become a tightly compacted mass without life. A indistinguishable morass, this is where my dislike of anime began. 

I had grown tired of the Japanese personality and culture that had made a stand still. I think if you compare a lot of works form the early 2000s with the recent ones you’d see what I mean. I was originally putting off making a thread like this because I wanted to make an anime culture timeline. I think distinct attitudes prevailed in certain times causing most of the anime to have that same attitude, but now it does not feel like it’s progressing. It’s ossified into a low denominator mass culture instead of something for a niche audience. 

This is just to get the thread going but I will talk latter about the Japanese personality aspect of thing and explain in deeper detail what I mean by that. Also with my second point I made(earlier and not here) was that it could not be overstated the impact western culture has had on Japan. This centers a lot of the Japanese personality side because it takes western cultural things and simply applied the Japanese personality to them making them seem strange and new. Now Japanese culture has been greatly influence by western culture but what I’m specifically talking about is how a lot of anime is just western stuff with a Japanese veneer. Although you could say they have made it their own in this way I was pointing out how it’s not just a thing of the past but a lot of “recent” anime is highly influenced by western stuff. This pertains to certain genres and how they although now completely Japanese have western roots and this has largely become forgotten. Sure it’s now Japanese because the Japanese personality has been applied but again I was just talking about the phenomenon and it’s implied corollaries.

Anyway I will write more but go ahead and start posting.
anthony
Thank you for getting us started. I really feel like this is a thread which ought to revolve around particular examples. Like one for each trend or phenomena you're describing at least. Also some nice images or embedded videos to bring the thread to life.

I would say that compared to you I am actually not a real anime fan. Or really a fan of anything. I just don't really habitually consume media. I'm always a selective chooser. Which to tie into what you said, is why anime/manga have a lot of incidental interest to me. Because there's so much cool, personal, idiosyncratic stuff going on there. I'll pick and choose individual things that look cool. I won't just watch stuff "because it's anime".

I see what you mean about these individually driven works being flooded out by group efforts for the people everywhere. The case which currently has me very concerned is video games. Both as an example of individual vision being lost to the mass and of encroaching western influence we couldn't have a better example than the Resident Evil 4 remake. Resident Evil was born as an emanation of the personal tastes, interests, and idiosyncracies of Shinji Mikami. Of course concessions were made to what the average Japanese person would find cool and what was in the cultural air at the time, but it's very personal to the point one can't really imagine it existing without him. Now we're at the Remake of Resident Evil 4. The triumph of Mikamiless Resident Evil. And as you say, the general tastes concessions are being made for and built around have evolved with time, and become very Americanised. Both in that Americans have been deliberately infiltrating to exercise outsized influence within Japanese media, and that over time inevitably Japanese people get exposed to more American notions of cool.

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Japanese people (especially Mikami) love fine details of cool objects. Every gun is unnecessarily rendered as a 3D object you can observe from different angles in Resident Evil. It's not just a handgun. It's a Berretta M92FS.

More generally, I can understand getting tired of a culture after 300 animes and am interested to see what you've observed across all of them. My general thinking is that mass culture being anything better than garbage is a kind of happy accident which can't be relied upon, and that Japan's real strength has been its creator-side ability to empower more weirdos and genuine artists than any other culture on Earth. Yes, the fine nature of the Japanese causing them to genuinely want what artists make is also nice, but just like the rest of the world Japan does have a lot of stupid people who would settle for FAR less. It's a kind of balancing act to get normal people to act better than animals. Pretty much the whole first world had it at one point. Most gave up or had this destroyed. Japan still has it. Americans see that and instinctively want to destroy it.

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Last thought. If anime is "actually not that good", what is? You say it actually sux "now". Do you believe there's an essential problem, that bad turns have been taken? You haven't gotten to specific examples yet, but I'm also not even clear on your general thinking.
PIGSAW Brick 
(04-03-2023, 01:29 AM)Reverend Moon Immortal Wrote: With anime I think there is a divide between works with Vision and Passion vs more socially oriented ones.

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I don't have a picture of a real one (where there's horror vacui millions of these things on a fucking Subaru or something), but this shit on cars, you've seen it if you've been anywhere near a college or a McDonald's parking lot in America (do I only see Zoomers at fast-food places because they find it less "pretentious" than normal restaurants? Everyone after and often including Gen X is fucking broke, so I don't imagine it's due to cost).

The aspect of "sociability" within "anime" is the most important one here. It is the difference between "Weeb" and "Weeaboo". A "weeb" is a poser, next in line of "fake nerds" following fake gamers:



A weeaboo is a "Japanophile"— a literal obsessive (and most importantly, non-ironic):



Weeaboo are cats, who've abandoned the false world for the real one:

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"Weebs" are spiritual peasant conservatives who have become aware that "liking anime" can be a stand-in for a personality, who are now attracted to signaling (this is the only thing normalfags do, everything is performative which is why everything they touch turns to shit). A "weeb" is then easily understood as someone obsessed with the idea of being SEEN as a weeaboo, rather than being one.

Any time I try to go anywhere, I'm bombarded with 3rd world niggers (this is actually a retarded aberration too, 3rd worlders used to contribute a lot— especially Malaysians) that have shit like this:

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I'm not a prude, nor am I bothered by doing things to offend and frighten normalfaggots (this is what you should do), but who is this "for"? Associating yourself with anything like this is a signal, just as the better examples I posted are— so the question then is "What does this signal?"
The answer, obviously, is that they ARE normalfaggots. It is "normal" to "eat ass", it is normal to be a degenerated beast of burden suffering from freedoms you lack the mental horizons to utilize.

Everything is one fight, one enemy.

(04-03-2023, 01:29 AM)Reverend Moon Immortal Wrote: That these kind of works by nature of the Japanese personality are connected and influence each other in a feed back loop that relates to the current culture and past anime culture. I think the Japanese anime in recent years has had a large shift to this side and had become a tightly compacted mass without life. A indistinguishable morass, this is where my dislike of anime began. 

I had grown tired of the Japanese personality and culture that had made a stand still. I think if you compare a lot of works form the early 2000s with the recent ones you’d see what I mean. I was originally putting off making a thread like this because I wanted to make an anime culture timeline. I think distinct attitudes prevailed in certain times causing most of the anime to have that same attitude, but now it does not feel like it’s progressing. It’s ossified into a low denominator mass culture instead of something for a niche audience. 

A key detail which is never mentioned about all beloved Millennial anime— such as Soyboy Bebald and Kaiba, is that all the hits (even the "cult") were original screenplays:



Original screenplay, then a manga was created after the fact.



EDIT: OP was deleted, replaced with what I think I posted before.

Original screenplay, designed to be a media franchise with a manga launched 3 months before the anime to coincide with it.



Original screenplay.



Original screenplay.



Original screenplay.

I could go on for awhile.

Anime is suffering from the same problem that art and media in America (or anywhere, frankly) are, which is that everything must be an adaptation, if not a remake.
This isn't to say that adaptations (or remakes) are inherently bad, as manga is far superior to anime due to further specification than what is typically allowed when larger budgets are involved. But if the only purpose of anime is to adapt preexisting works, it will naturally stagnate, as OP has pointed out. As such, anime with original screenplays are typically the most like manga— because they retain the niche specificity that makes manga so attractive.

(04-03-2023, 01:29 AM)Reverend Moon Immortal Wrote: Now Japanese culture has been greatly influence by western culture but what I’m specifically talking about is how a lot of anime is just western stuff with a Japanese veneer. 

(04-03-2023, 02:22 AM)anthony Wrote: I would say that compared to you I am actually not a real anime fan. Or really a fan of anything. I just don't really habitually consume media. I'm always a selective chooser. Which to tie into what you said, is why anime/manga have a lot of incidental interest to me. Because there's so much cool, personal, idiosyncratic stuff going on there.

This is the correct form of the weeaboo, to venerate the spirit rather than the artifact (except when the artifact becomes a rare vessel of spirit no longer accessible).

(04-03-2023, 02:22 AM)anthony Wrote: Both in that Americans have been deliberately infiltrating to exercise outsized influence within Japanese media, and that over time inevitably Japanese people get exposed to more American notions of cool.

The former is the only issue, the latter becomes bad because of the former. Japan has always been obsessed with Hollywood/America (that's why all their depictions of America are so much better than America is, because they're basically using music videos as a reference for normal life in America) since ZOG rigged Pearl Harbor to justify nuking the most valuable country on the planet, twice. Unfortunately, America is simply too connected to everything for it to die or degrade in a vacuum— as America becomes sick, so does it's sickness spread to the world, but especially to America's 51st State, Japan.

(04-03-2023, 02:22 AM)anthony Wrote: Japanese people (especially Mikami) love fine details of cool objects. Every gun is unnecessarily rendered as a 3D object you can observe from different angles in Resident Evil. It's not just a handgun. It's a Berretta M92FS.

ComputerandVideogames Wrote:It says on Tango's website that your hobby is collecting watches.

Yes, that's true. I collect everything from expensive watches to junk watches, and especially mechanical watches. I used to try to wear a different watch every day. But I had to wear several each day - it exhausted me! If you wear an expensive watch, you have to wear suitable clothes too, but these days I dress down at work. A good watch doesn't suit casual clothes, so I rarely wear those watches now. Today I'm wearing a Seiko, a Japanese brand. This cost about 6,500 yen (£50)... a very cheap watch.

[Sauce]

(04-03-2023, 02:22 AM)anthony Wrote: It's a kind of balancing act to get normal people to act better than animals. Pretty much the whole first world had it at one point. Most gave up or had this destroyed. Japan still has it. Americans see that and instinctively want to destroy it.

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Guest
What anime from the 20s specifically are worse than anime from the 2000s, or 10s, or even 90s? I’m not a huge anime defender, but to me this decade has been exceptional for anime so far.
Verlion
I can't watch any anime that was produced digitally. They all look like terrible schlock.

The best anime are those that transcend "animeness" as I call it. This is a problem that anime (and manga) have specifically due to a combination of exoticness and high foreign consumption, the problem being that I believe a lot of anime is deliberately designed to appeal to foreign interest in Japanese culture. Therefore, the anime has to exude that type of energy and spirit. Again, the best anime transcend that and become real art: the best example I can think of is Studio Ghibli films which I believe many nowadays wouldn't even consider anime but just "animations" or "children's films". Another example would be Ghost in the Shell.
No one watches films because they are "films", but many watch anime because they are "anime".
To transcend the confines of foreign perception usually entails toning down or outright eliminating Japanese-specific cultural elements within anime. However, this need not be the case as Ghibli films for example still utilise Japanese imagery extensively, but they do it in a way that seems skillful and 'mature' so as to not lean into any Orientalism. How they specifically do this I do not know, only that they are good examples.
As foreign interest in anime only grows (or alternatively, as the older generations that grew up before the introduction of anime to the West in the 80s-90s die off) I believe this problem will only get worse. Studios will continue to endeavor to market the most gross and outputting elements of Japanese culture in their work to satiate the desires of loser Westerners, and we will suffer for it.
Of course I know there is the opposite effect where instead some anime self-impose restrictions on their creativity to appease non-existent "widespread" RadLib morality, as I have heard "Chainsaw Man" does. I think this and the "degeneration" will occur simultaneously in separate series' as a sort of pincer movement.
anthony
(04-03-2023, 08:11 AM)Verlion Wrote: No one watches films because they are "films", but many watch anime because they are "anime".

I would actually say watching films as films the default mode of media consumption. Most books sold are to women who "read books". Most "gamers" are just retarded cattle who instabuy the new big release they heard about or just take the unending ZOGbeam to the brain that is long-term online gaming. Movies do not depend on cinephiles to break even. They depend on people who could just as readily be working in a coal mine for that two hours. "Eh, it was okay I guess."

Quote:To transcend the confines of foreign perception usually entails toning down or outright eliminating Japanese-specific cultural elements within anime. However, this need not be the case as Ghibli films for example still utilise Japanese imagery extensively, but they do it in a way that seems skillful and 'mature' so as to not lean into any Orientalism. How they specifically do this I do not know, only that they are good examples.
As foreign interest in anime only grows (or alternatively, as the older generations that grew up before the introduction of anime to the West in the 80s-90s die off) I believe this problem will only get worse. Studios will continue to endeavor to market the most gross and outputting elements of Japanese culture in their work to satiate the desires of loser Westerners, and we will suffer for it.
Of course I know there is the opposite effect where instead some anime self-impose restrictions on their creativity to appease non-existent "widespread" RadLib morality, as I have heard "Chainsaw Man" does. I think this and the "degeneration" will occur simultaneously in separate series' as a sort of pincer movement.

Despite being deeply concerned about Japan's reactions to foreign tastes I believe most people get very fanciful when speculating on the subject. If you want to try this again how about basing it in some examples of things you actually know about? Let's stay grounded here.
Guest
Largest problem is probably just that places to discuss anime/manga are too populated and so they lack critical judgement.
But I will concede that I don't know what current animes/mangas are being made.
Obviously many "larger" IPs suffer from outsourcing in the same way that Western animation suffers. But as far as I know there is still a huge volume of very niche manga being made. I assume some of this will sift out and become anime.
Global market is bad for Japanese media, and so it is less likely that "made to be an anime" animes will be of any special quality. The type of weeb that exists now doesn't want quality, they want the correct symbols.
Still, Japan has craftsmanship entwined very deeply into itself. Unless they get diluted, they will probably always retain this. With such craftsmanship, someone will make something good even with the limiting factor of suits wanting global appeal.
It's not just American influence, see the Chinese part of it too.
kirukuni
(04-03-2023, 08:11 AM)Verlion Wrote: I can't watch any anime that was produced digitally. They all look like terrible schlock.

The best anime are those that transcend "animeness" as I call it. This is a problem that anime (and manga) have specifically due to a combination of exoticness and high foreign consumption, the problem being that I believe a lot of anime is deliberately designed to appeal to foreign interest in Japanese culture. Therefore, the anime has to exude that type of energy and spirit. Again, the best anime transcend that and become real art: the best example I can think of is Studio Ghibli films which I believe many nowadays wouldn't even consider anime but just "animations" or "children's films". Another example would be Ghost in the Shell.
No one watches films because they are "films", but many watch anime because they are "anime".
To transcend the confines of foreign perception usually entails toning down or outright eliminating Japanese-specific cultural elements within anime. However, this need not be the case as Ghibli films for example still utilise Japanese imagery extensively, but they do it in a way that seems skillful and 'mature' so as to not lean into any Orientalism. How they specifically do this I do not know, only that they are good examples.
As foreign interest in anime only grows (or alternatively, as the older generations that grew up before the introduction of anime to the West in the 80s-90s die off) I believe this problem will only get worse. Studios will continue to endeavor to market the most gross and outputting elements of Japanese culture in their work to satiate the desires of loser Westerners, and we will suffer for it.
Of course I know there is the opposite effect where instead some anime self-impose restrictions on their creativity to appease non-existent "widespread" RadLib morality, as I have heard "Chainsaw Man" does. I think this and the "degeneration" will occur simultaneously in separate series' as a sort of pincer movement.

Do these look like hyper-oriental redesigns to you?
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What modern anime are you even talking about?
Guest
(04-04-2023, 12:21 AM)kirukuni Wrote: Do these look like hyper-oriental redesigns to you?
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What modern anime are you even talking about?
Big problem with amarnites: they get angry at things that don’t exist but they assume exist. There’s a bigger problem with overwesternization of anime (Cyberpunk Edgerunners, Scott Pilgrim anime) than there is with “overappealing with the most gross aspects of Japanese culture” nowadays. If you haven’t watched at least 500 anime, you aren’t really qualified to talk about it.
NuclearAbsolutist
(04-04-2023, 06:05 AM)Guest Wrote: Big problem with with amarnites: they get angry at things that don’t exist but they assume exist. There’s a bigger problem with overwesternization of anime (Cyberpunk Edgerunners, Scott Pilgrim anime) than there is with “overappealing with the most gross aspects of Japanese culture” nowadays. If you haven’t watched at least 500 anime, you aren’t really qualified to talk about it.

It is not just a issue of amarnites but common to all discourse online especially in media discussion where the collapse of expertise has lead to all matter of false frames to be taken as gospel. On the topic the most clear example of how its not a issue of appealing to some magic otaku fan service demographic that is strangling anime/manga in my mind, is Attack On Titian's creator  stating he did the infamous heel turn after being inspired apparently by the marvel cinematic universe.
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“Power changes its appearance but not its reality.”― Bertrand De Jouvenel
Verlion
If you are looking at a camel, and the camel is covering a tree behind it, does the tree not exist?
anthony
(04-05-2023, 05:07 AM)Verlion Wrote: If you are looking at a camel, and the camel is covering a tree behind it, does the tree not exist?

Please use actual examples. If this place has one problem it's how many posters we have who get carried away by pseudo intellectual fancies grounded in nothing. Images, videos, you could make a very interesting post out of your premise. Hell even just write about something we can recognise. Anime is a real and tangible thing. You have no excuse for not doing this.
Verlion
(04-05-2023, 05:10 AM)anthony Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:07 AM)Verlion Wrote: If you are looking at a camel, and the camel is covering a tree behind it, does the tree not exist?

Please use actual examples. If this place has one problem it's how many posters we have who get carried away by pseudo intellectual fancies grounded in nothing. Images, videos, you could make a very interesting post out of your premise. Hell even just write about something we can recognise. Anime is a real and tangible thing. You have no excuse for not doing this.

I'm just joshing. What I had meant is that the previous posters did not understand when I said "non-Japanese are very attracted to the Japanese-ness of anime", and took it at literal face value. Yeah, an anime may have western influenced art style, but that doesn't mean the characters don't act according to Japanese social-norms, or what have you.
Let me guess, to the previous posters Kung Fu Panda is a fundamentally Chinese film because it has Chinese aesthetics and is set in China?
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a system is failing
As much as I like to be competitive and hold up the banner of the West, it's virtually impossible for me to truly consider anything I've seen from Japan as an actual problem. And being an outsider, I don't have any ability to really detect a decline. It's unquestionable that anime, as an aesthetic and category is increasingly incorporated into contentslop, and naturally the market will respond to this demand. But if we're talking about anime in a critical fashion, being one of our resident West-centric personalities I figure I may as well offer my own input, at the risk of relatively irrelevance. 

First thing I object to is the reduction of anime to a synonym of "beauty" and the West to a synonym of "ugly". I'm warning you, you don't want to do this, there is nothing worse than when people reduce all quality down to the simple capacity to be pleasing, or any other SPECIFIC trait, this is how you end up with kitsch, and an artistic atmosphere dominated by kitsch, well, in many ways this is a big problem with our media and entertainment here in the West. It doesn't give the full picture either, anime and manga does not automatically fail when it tries to show things that are ugly, and nobody should fault any artist for wanting to include the dark side of reality in their works.

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Incidentally, and in retrospect, hilariously, I was exposed to Junji Ito around the age of ten. The cringe of insisting a woman is cool aside, I have many times in chatlogs praised my mom's recognition and understanding of art and what is cool. That's how I was exposed to this stuff, she had a period where she got into graphic novels, and for her manga was just another type of graphic novel (she didn't actually even know the term "manga" and referred to them by this). The particular one she was reading to me was this: 

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I remember being totally freaked out by this image, and that was when she stopped showing it to me, though it's now burned into my brain. In fact, a strange feeling of being shocked and scared at random was not unusual with my initial childhood experiences of Japanese entertainment, I could really feel the foreign sensibility and Japanese have this way of going all-out with these things, sometimes even having rather stark and sudden turns to the shocking or weird. No-Face from Spirited Away scared the hell out of me as well for this reason. Japanese don't shy away from ugliness itself, and the fact this stuff is still extremely effective as art shows that "beauty" and pleasing imagery is by no means the basis for what works about this. "Sleek" comes closer to the appeal, but really, I would say DIRECT is what the Japanese character really is. Westerners not only accept grain, distortion, and garbage mixed in with things, it's part of the totality of the experience. A bit from Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies sums up the western character in art: "Honor the mistake as a hidden intention". I get the feeling Japanese abhor this kind of sloppiness in their own works, even if they want distortion and grain, it will be handled with great care. Sorry, but as always things devolve into music as I consider this my most solid foundation.

Why was the West the one to create Jazz, or distorted guitar music, postmodernism? Westerners are fascinated by input from things outside of their own character, of interference from the outside, whereas Japanese artists always strike me as lovers of the interior world. Their artistic works are about putting forth the inner ideals and visions at all costs. The romance and what westerners would see as "quirkiness" of anime is in responded with our inherent distaste for an entirely interior expression. Is Yngwie Malmsteen more respected in Japan than the West? Without looking it up, I am willing to bet he is received better there: this embrace of guitar pyrotechnics (his inner love) at the expense of "maturity" (outside judgement) is compatible with the Japanese character. I would be remiss not to mention religion here. 

Japanese notion of "Kami" and the Western religion of a monotheistic God who puts forth laws, even in spite of our modern irreligiosity, could form a basis for these differences. Kami seems to be about the recognition of the INNATE (interior) spirit of things, whereas in the West our notion of religion is all about the imposition of a greater, incomprehensible being from above, which we are considered doomed if we simply don't conform to. Even movements which subvert the explicitly religious element, like Surrealism or Postmodernism are entirely focused on the input of "the outside", essentially subsituting God for some other type of outside imposer. In the case of Surrealism, the input of the unconscious, and with postmodernism, the input of non-western sensibilities. Even the Japanese interest in the West is not about truly recognizing us, it's about turning us into a muse. This is far different from westerners who genuinely feel a compulsion to take foreign culture at its word, and take it dead seriously, even to the point of overvaluing primitive junk. 

If any decline in Japanese content is possible, it's going to be a downstream effect of our own. Either through our inability to be the muse that inspired modern Japan, or the perversion of what we are, taken as part of the ideal and having bad knock-on effects towards Japanese sensibilities. If it must happen, then I'm hoping for the former rather than the latter. But there's also an elephant in the room here and that is the simple fact Japan hasn't fucked its own demographics. As much as I respect the spiritual and ethereal side of art, I am always shilling "process" and materialism as overlooked aspects of how these things are determined. Our identity as Westerners is seriously fucking confused right now, and thus we simply do not have anything resembling a good foundation to leap off of into interesting, new directions. The Japanese can get away with doing insane experimental shit better than we can now because the ETHNIC MUDDYING has created a confusion which gives way to homogenous Western culture. To a degree, Japan will be automatically spared of the level of decline we have undergone ourselves simply because of this material reality. In fact I think Japan, especially once the population starts to equalize and the old people die off, could still have a very bright future due to demographics ALONE. And this coincides nicely with what I've characterized as emphasis on the interior. Japanese are so in touch with this they CANNOT be made to think the Japanese People are disposable, like we have with our own.
anthony
(04-05-2023, 05:24 AM)Verlion Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:10 AM)anthony Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:07 AM)Verlion Wrote: If you are looking at a camel, and the camel is covering a tree behind it, does the tree not exist?

Please use actual examples. If this place has one problem it's how many posters we have who get carried away by pseudo intellectual fancies grounded in nothing. Images, videos, you could make a very interesting post out of your premise. Hell even just write about something we can recognise. Anime is a real and tangible thing. You have no excuse for not doing this.

I'm just joshing. What I had meant is that the previous posters did not understand when I said "non-Japanese are very attracted to the Japanese-ness of anime", and took it at literal face value. Yeah, an anime may have western influenced art style, but that doesn't mean the characters don't act according to Japanese social-norms, or what have you.
Let me guess, to the previous posters Kung Fu Panda is a fundamentally Chinese film because it has Chinese aesthetics and is set in China?

Your point is not hard to understand. But if you're suggesting that it's there and that it's the problem, nobody else thinks they see it, and you refuse to point it out, what are we supposed to do with these posts?
parsifal
(04-03-2023, 05:42 AM)PIGSAW Wrote: The aspect of "sociability" within "anime" is the most important one here. It is the difference between "Weeb" and "Weeaboo". A "weeb" is a poser, next in line of "fake nerds" following fake gamers:
Weeaboo are cats, who've abandoned the false world for the real one:

[fascinating images]

"Weebs" are spiritual peasant conservatives who have become aware that "liking anime" can be a stand-in for a personality, who are now attracted to signaling (this is the only thing normalfags do, everything is performative which is why everything they touch turns to shit). A "weeb" is then easily understood as someone obsessed with the idea of being SEEN as a weeaboo, rather than being one.

interesting thread. the only thing i want to add is an observation on these weebs: you would think that someone who is obsessed with anime and anime characters would want to imitate them in his or her style of dress, but in practice they mostly wear things like graphic tees with anime-based designed or adorn their belongings with numerous anime-related pins and stickers (even when it's rather easy to dress like an anime character). those images you posted are a perfect example of the inverse; people who see themselves in the same light as their obsession and wish to embody anime rather than signal it.
Verlion
(04-05-2023, 07:47 AM)anthony Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:24 AM)Verlion Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:10 AM)anthony Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 05:07 AM)Verlion Wrote: If you are looking at a camel, and the camel is covering a tree behind it, does the tree not exist?

Please use actual examples. If this place has one problem it's how many posters we have who get carried away by pseudo intellectual fancies grounded in nothing. Images, videos, you could make a very interesting post out of your premise. Hell even just write about something we can recognise. Anime is a real and tangible thing. You have no excuse for not doing this.

I'm just joshing. What I had meant is that the previous posters did not understand when I said "non-Japanese are very attracted to the Japanese-ness of anime", and took it at literal face value. Yeah, an anime may have western influenced art style, but that doesn't mean the characters don't act according to Japanese social-norms, or what have you.
Let me guess, to the previous posters Kung Fu Panda is a fundamentally Chinese film because it has Chinese aesthetics and is set in China?

Your point is not hard to understand. But if you're suggesting that it's there and that it's the problem, nobody else thinks they see it, and you refuse to point it out, what are we supposed to do with these posts?

I didn't intend to write a dissertation on my idea, I just decided to lay it down to see if others had observed the same thing. I don't think in our culture you could find many who would admit they watch anime at least somewhat due to its exotic nature and not for its actual plot or characters, as that would be "orientalist". I am simply describing a psychological tendency  I have observed which has gone unpronounced, which I cannot definitively quantify and categorise due to its elusiveness. If you all don't see it, that's fine, I just don't know how I can explain it in any concrete terms. You can ignore it.
Guest
I agree, anime is overrated. I liked it when I was a teen but as I rewatch them ( due to a lack of good anime ) and as I grow and become more intelligent and sensitive I realize anime was never all that good. Look at Code Geass. At first glance it's about a charismatic sensitive young man who aims to rule the world. But really he's doing it all for social justice and to spite his father.

Vinland Saga is a good modern example. The main characters father has some needle dick morality despite supposedly being one of the strongest men alive. Season 1 has bad ass characters like Askeladd but then in S2 the main character becomes a slave.

Attack on Titan is another good example.

Mikkagroyper: "Anime is a permanent upgrade in the life of the spirit; there is no competing standard of beauty."
Hamamelis
Ever since I've saw my first anime at age 8 or so (Dragon Ball), the most striking thing to me was how badly it compares to the mangas. Apart from high effort japanese animation, anime seem to be mostly driven by the desire to reduce production cost as much as humanly (bugmanly) possible. I have only watched a handful of anime in all of my life and wouldn't rewatch any of them. I was over 20 when I first gave a Ghibli movie a chance, because I so strongly suspected it would be cheap and underwhelming as well.
That there is a whole subculture in the West who identifies by their consoomption of anime, and that they scoff at Western animation (like Rick & Morty, to name a controversial example), has always struck me as laughable. In the aughts, I suspected that this is mostly a function of anime being a niche, exotic interest that had synergies with being pathologically online in a time when this was still uncommon. It has now been normified and even 'woodified.
I am not well enough informed on anime trends to say whether this changed the medium, or simply revealed it's inherent appeal to the masses. Suffices to say that I feel confirmed in my abstentation from it.

To be clear, all the Ghiblis I've seen were fantastic, Ghost in the Shell is one of my all time favourites, and I liked Akira despite their deviation from the manga. But those would not count as anime, I guess. The only serialised anime I enjoyed watching was JoJo. If somebody were to ask me if animes are worth the time, I would direct him to manga instead, which are in my eyes the height of impressionistic visual storytelling, in ways that Western graphic novels only rarely achieve.
Corvid
I watch about one series every year, recommended by close friends. Late at night in July or August and I only watch short stuff so I'm able to run through the whole thing and finish by early morning. Other than that I absorb Japanese cartoon media at a passive rate, share some drawings I see, etc. But I find it much more pleasurable to have a few shows that I really enjoy rather than attach myself to the "weeb" normalfag signalling by keeping up with seasonal shit.

I neglected to mention that most of this background absorption isn't even "anime", it's Touhou. I play a few Touhou games in class to avoid paying attention.
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