Dissident approach to child rearing

[Guest]

those two examples are opposite extremes on the spectrum of female typology, with of course decreasing severity as you descend toward the centre, where you will find "girls who wear uggs"

[BillyONare]

Uggs seems like a low IQ trashy trait now. I have seen some very classy and hot looking girls wearing classic-style mukluks. I would like to know what the classy winter footwear for girls is now. It has been a while since I have been in Mother Hyperborea.

[anthony]

This thread seems to be devolving into hypotheticals and fantasies, and adversarially making assumptions about the fantasies of others and poking holes in these projected elements. Let's get practical.

[parsifal]

i have no idea why this thread of all the others has attracted so many posts on a forum consisting overwhelmingly of zoomers who are not even remotely considering having children yet.

[Hamamelis]

I didn't anticipate this type of attention either. But Anthony is right, more practical ideas - considering the audience, we might adapt the question:
What do you think was missing from your upringing the most? What do you want to be the central difference between the way you were brought up and the way you will bring up your children?

And please, stop with the "how to pick a good wife"-faggotry. Create a separate thread about women, where you can simp for tradgirls and altgirls, I will gladly contribute there towards that topic.

[anthony]

I didn't anticipate this type of attention either. But Anthony is right, more practical ideas - considering the audience, we might adapt the question:
What do you think was missing from your upringing the most? What do you want to be the central difference between the way you were brought up and the way you will bring up your children?

And please, stop with the "how to pick a good wife"-faggotry. Create a separate thread about women, where you can simp for tradgirls and altgirls, I will gladly contribute there towards that topic.

I think a key problem this thread has had is an inability to focus in on something hinted at in your question. "What was missing in your upbringing the most?" Are we talking about ourselves and hypothetical children like ourselves? Or just children?

To answer your question, and those I just asked, I feel like what was missing from my upbringing was any kind of discernment from above. Here's a dissident thought on child-rearing. Take the possibility your child is exceptional seriously. Not in a stupid childish wish fulfillment way. But like you've got a lot of potential in front of you. If you're serious about that and not an ignorant retard you probably can't do too badly.

Really I think the right attitudes to children aren't cerebral or taught. Sympathy and respect for children I think comes from genuine self knowledge and an awareness of your own childhood experiences and feelings. As Billionaire said on old amarna, normal people tend to view their childhood selves as this disgusting, shameful host they had to gestate inside. I think I used to be an asshole to children until I read some stuff that got me thinking back far more sympathetically on how I had to live when I was a child.

[Hamamelis]

...

Are we talking about ourselves and hypothetical children like ourselves? Or just children?

My OP was my first post here, and I assumed there would be more people with children, or planning to have children soon. The focus of the thread was supposed to be practical advice or experiences with regard to small children (instead of the usual "have your son read the Classics"). For the most part, I liked the contributions so far, but I think focussing less on our own offspring and instead on children in general might serve this topic well.

Take the possibility your child is exceptional seriously.

How would you go about taking this seriously? I strongly dislike the tiger-mom (for lack of a better term) approach, and I don't see the Polgar method as feasible for couples where both parents have to work or study. Similarly, de-schooling or homeschooling (both of which I would have welcomed as a child), are difficult to organise in many situations. In discussion with my wife, I have proposed doing homeschooling if one of our children suffers in school (beyond what is "reasonable" to me), but it could mean going from poor to scraping by. In lieu of such high-intensity fostering, I try to give my children options to engage their interests (music, reading, sport), but this seems basically what I had as a child as well.

[Guest]

It's a huge class HBD red pill how proles treat children like trash. Niggers are the worst with this, they're infamous for beating their kids. White trash are the same. And it varies in magnitude along that direction until you get to elites, who naturally treat their kids like people. You all may not want to hear this, but it's not some complicated Freudian thing -- low IQ, selfish people are just retarded and it shows in all facets of their life. Give them human property, and they treat it like shit. Give them material property, and they ruin it and let it be dirty. Give them a body, and they get obese. Only less than the top 5% of people are not either so low IQ or selfish that they are immediately disgusting to high IQ, virtuous elites. The gene pool is polluted. The solution is eugenics. /thread

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Oops, wrong thread. Sorry about that guys.

[BillyONare]

Similarly, de-schooling or homeschooling (both of which I would have welcomed as a child), are difficult to organise in many situations. In discussion with my wife, I have proposed doing homeschooling if one of our children suffers in school (beyond what is "reasonable" to me), but it could mean going from poor to scraping by.

Finding a good wife is the hard part, for Americans at least, so congratulations. If you could get permanent residence in America then it would be pretty trivial to get a job as a plumber or something similar and provide for your family without your wife working. You will be poor for many years and not be able to afford a good house or live in a nice city for a while, but it is doable. Buy as much bitcoin as possible and scheme to make more money.

[Guest]

In my view: The possibility that your child may be exceptional is seeing that your child may mog you...to unimaginable degrees. Not to say that the parent is not exceptional, but I feel this is the proper frame of the thing. With such a view then one could allow the child certain freedoms that one would not allow normally...if one thinks that he is able to fully understand the route and consequence of each action.

In short, I see it as a call to let the child do SOME things that the parent might not understand. Obviously, certain things are not to be let into this list. And the exceptional child might make some mistakes in their own routing forward. Ex. Accelerants, hard drugs, are historically tempting. And they might even have some rewards behind them. But there must be some separation, not just a lifeline, if a child is to go into this path.

Other, less obvious examples might be: Development of some thing that does not yet exist...Which is very hard for the parent to understand. Does one ban this SCHIZO activity? But then...what if the child is the one to break through the barrier of reality? And so it goes.

It is a difficult subject, and I expect luck and destiny play larger roles than we are all comfortable with.

[Guest]

Homeschooling seems a lackluster alternative, and seems to produce people of barely higher pedigree than those taught in the public school system. There's actually a commonality between the two, which is the real crux of the issue, and that is that the distribution of teaching resources is spread entirely too thin.

In public school, you have many pupils, all of which have to be catered to, and so you get the diluted appeals to the lowest common denominator that we are all familiar with. It is nigh-impossible to become excellent in such a space, because the curriculum dictates that the sub-90 IQ students have as high a likelihood of success as does the 135 IQ math prodigy.

As for homeschooling, you have the possibility for a malleable and more singularly-focused curriculum, but the teachers are the parents, who likely possess, at most, a layman's understanding/interest in whatever topics may be covered on any given day. That, as well as life's other responsibilities getting in the way, means that, while homeschooling may be better than public schooling education-wise... well, that's not exactly a high bar!

For homeschooling to produce excellent children, the parents themselves would need to be excellent. Both would need to have a deep understanding of subjects varying across several different topics, and they would need to engage in exercises with the children, so that they could apply what they had learned. Most prospective parents do not meet these requirements, and even if they did, the conditions of their own lives, and what responsibilities they have, would interfere with the monomaniacal obsession that would be required of them.

As such, I believe that, for the most part, homeschooling for us would be a largely unsuccessful endeavour, if what you are after is Paul Atreides for a son - you and your wife would need to be Leto, Jessica, Thufir, Gurney, Dr. Yueh, and Duncan Idaho just between the two of you: it's nigh-impossible!

Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, regardless, because I'm sure parenting is rewarding in its own right, and any incremental improvement you make upon your lineage is a net positive. I would just say that managing expectations, and not getting too ahead of ourselves, is probably best practice moving forward. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however.

[Datacop]

pure fantasy. nobody is worse, cheats more, than the spoiled rotten daddy's girl who feels she is entitled to everything and more. no, no, no - me? i want "daddy issues": a progressive girl of good stock who wants nothing more than to latch herself onto her man. you want a girl with self-esteem issues - put a baby into her and she'll love you forever. if "roasties" are your concern, then you're not looking in the right spots - the modest midwestern girl gets ran through just as much. going after the wheat field girl named "courtney" is precisely how you get #longhoused

This is a farcical dichotomy you made up, my mistake was engaging with it seriously in my last post. What you believe about women is more nonsensical than the hardcore siscon hentai I consume regularly.

[Guest]

What you believe about women is more nonsensical than the hardcore siscon hentai I consume regularly.

“What do you mean more nonsensical?”

This is a farcical dichotomy you made up, my mistake was engaging with it seriously in my last post. What you believe about women is more nonsensical than the hardcore siscon hentai I consume regularly.

[anthony]

Homeschooling seems a lackluster alternative, and seems to produce people of barely higher pedigree than those taught in the public school system. There's actually a commonality between the two, which is the real crux of the issue, and that is that the distribution of teaching resources is spread entirely too thin.

In public school, you have many pupils, all of which have to be catered to, and so you get the diluted appeals to the lowest common denominator that we are all familiar with. It is nigh-impossible to become excellent in such a space, because the curriculum dictates that the sub-90 IQ students have as high a likelihood of success as does the 135 IQ math prodigy.

As for homeschooling, you have the possibility for a malleable and more singularly-focused curriculum, but the teachers are the parents, who likely possess, at most, a layman's understanding/interest in whatever topics may be covered on any given day. That, as well as life's other responsibilities getting in the way, means that, while homeschooling may be better than public schooling education-wise... well, that's not exactly a high bar!

For homeschooling to produce excellent children, the parents themselves would need to be excellent. Both would need to have a deep understanding of subjects varying across several different topics, and they would need to engage in exercises with the children, so that they could apply what they had learned. Most prospective parents do not meet these requirements, and even if they did, the conditions of their own lives, and what responsibilities they have, would interfere with the monomaniacal obsession that would be required of them.

As such, I believe that, for the most part, homeschooling for us would be a largely unsuccessful endeavour, if what you are after is Paul Atreides for a son - you and your wife would need to be Leto, Jessica, Thufir, Gurney, Dr. Yueh, and Duncan Idaho just between the two of you: it's nigh-impossible!

Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, regardless, because I'm sure parenting is rewarding in its own right, and any incremental improvement you make upon your lineage is a net positive. I would just say that managing expectations, and not getting too ahead of ourselves, is probably best practice moving forward. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however.

Very well put. An unfortunate fact behind a lot of what greater minds (like ours) would like is that it requires a lot of money. More than "Yeah I studied stem really diligently then bought some sweet crypto" money. More like "my kike family started a bank 300 years ago" money. I just remembered some really interesting stuff on education that follows this line you're putting forward here.

https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/why-we-s...-einsteins
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/co...c-tutoring
https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/follow-u...-einsteins
https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/how-geni...-be-raised

Scott Alexander is such a gigantic faggot.

Everyone please if you're interested in practical human cultivation read the above (at least the first one or two) and comment. Should get this thread nicely on track. Thank you guest for your excellent post.

[Guest]

“and as racial and gender barriers came thundering down across the globe” 
“personally hired John Edmonstone, a former slave and black freedman, to give him lessons on taxidermy outside of his classes”
“early feminist, and all-around Renaissance man.”
Just read the first one, thanks for the articles, but can you put a  libtarded warning first. 


The Aristocratic tutor becoming fesible with advances of AI is very interesting. Has anyone talked about quality of material yet? Books themselves can be a very dense Source of knowledge for a child old enough to be autodidactic but it’s quite difficult to find books that are actually useful. 

The Goethean education was a very good idea but I think the modern day equivalent would be anime education(although Goethe is very good, I keep a copy of the sorrows of young werther with me where ever I go). Also I feel like twitter itself acts like a pseudo form of this Aristocratic tutoring, maybe besides AI something based off the “twitter form” could be made? I’m not sure how this would work but I think it would be an invaluable tool. 

Also jewsteins tutors last name being Talmud is very kek.

[anthony]

“and as racial and gender barriers came thundering down across the globe” 
“personally hired John Edmonstone, a former slave and black freedman, to give him lessons on taxidermy outside of his classes”
“early feminist, and all-around Renaissance man.”
Just read the first one, thanks for the articles, but can you put a  libtarded warning first. 


The Aristocratic tutor becoming fesible with advances of AI is very interesting. Has anyone talked about quality of material yet? Books themselves can be a very dense Source of knowledge for a child old enough to be autodidactic but it’s quite difficult to find books that are actually useful. 

The Goethean education was a very good idea but I think the modern day equivalent would be anime education(although Goethe is very good, I keep a copy of the sorrows of young werther with me where ever I go). Also I feel like twitter itself acts like a pseudo form of this Aristocratic tutoring, maybe besides AI something based off the “twitter form” could be made? I’m not sure how this would work but I think it would be an invaluable tool. 

Also jewsteins tutors last name being Talmud is very kek.

Right now what we have kind of organically emerging is younger people finding more natural role models and respectable influences online than they can find in person. But the power of this is limited by the time and/or interests of internet people. Andrew Tate is seeking attention in this and sinking a lot of time because he wants money and for stupid people to worship him. Better people have stuff occupying their time and can't be dad or tutor. Also they'll probably want it less, both because it's not something our culture encourages good men to do, and better people are less likely to see themselves as worthy of the attention. Twitter is short, full of histrionic and absurd characters, clique oriented, etc, but it can still be a foot in the door for some very good things to younger people I believe. Probably got most of our userbase here.

The power of emergent "AI" is that it can be an always there, always available guiding presence. Of course this would be an extraordinary amount of power and influence to grant to what is ultimately a tool. But it's an inspiring thought. Every boy with his own personal 'Cortana'. The value of this is related to the books thing. Who is setting up and programming cortana and what for? Pretty much all of us went to schools, and schools are full of books. But did any good come of that? It's back to the most general problem of schooling, which is that it is not built around good intentions anymore. Obviously if you could arrange your own cortana that'd be brilliant, but also way off. But a chatGPT taught to be halfway friendly and respond a bit more organically to a childlike line of inquiry could do extraordinary things. I am extremely optimistic on the potential of all things "AI".

[Guest]

The multi-generational family business is just "aristocratic tutoring" for the peasantry.

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Addendum: the newest episode of Caribbean Rhythms coincidentally covers the failures of the public education system - go listen NAO!!!

[anthony]

The multi-generational family business is just "aristocratic tutoring" for the peasantry.

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Addendum: the newest episode of Caribbean Rhythms coincidentally covers the failures of the public education system - go listen NAO!!!

How about you do us a solid and cover the essential points?

[Guest]

Honestly? It's just a short rant, and it mostly just reaffirms much of what has already been said ITT. Disregard.

[Hamamelis]

I finally came around to Anthony's assigned reading (Hoel on aristocratic tutoring, and SSC's comment on it). My comments:

Re: Genius, and the lack thereof:

This seems to be mostly a discussion about what makes a genius, and thus not extremely important for our discussion. What I would add is that Hoel (like others) prematurely dismisses the low-hanging fruit explanation for the ebb in scientific breakthrough. This is not our topic here, but I think it is truly underappreciated how different the landscape of knowledge has become over the last hundred years. It's not that there is nothing left to discover. Rather, what can be discovered now (often at high expenses) rarely brings about a new understanding of the field. This is means most discoveries now expand owned space, rather than conquer unowned space. This changes the nature of a scientist from that of an explorer to that of a labourer. Is somebody like that ever considered a "genius"?
 
Further, I think Hoel (like others) doesn't calculate how important reverence is to the status of genius. One reason why we don't have a Mozart right now is that there is no way for him to attain a comparable status by achievement. He can't be court composer of a beloved or feared king, and any way to achieve success is routed through economic institutions that make a commodity out of fame, such that the achievement is forever diminished. Naturally, the same goes for our contemporary Einstein: Can you name the people who won the last few Nobel prizes, usually for their life's work? The reason you can't is because none of their achievements are attached to any metaphysical structure that furnishes them with the appropriate gravity. 

Compound these two points with the usually discussed facts about academia, women, nigs and nogs, and you arrive at our predicament.

Re: Tutoring

On one hand, I don't think Hoel in any way demonstrates that this is the mechanism that brings about geniuses. Actually, he unwittingly seems to argue that intelligent and wealthy parents are the biggest predictor of genius (I agree with this), and that tutoring is mostly the way children were taught before we had modern conceptions of school. I do, however, agree that some form of tutoring would be the ideal way to educate your children, if you can afford it. At this point I want to distance the discussion from "genius", and maybe even from excellence. As I alluded to in my previous post, I don't think you need to (or should) set this goal for your children. Making your children excellent in ZOGworld is not admirable. You should want to your children to develop their potential. At least, you should want your children not to be miserable (which many of us were in public school, and blame that institution largely for it).

I think one underdiscussed aspect of home schooling is that parents are not in the best position to be teachers to their offspring. As the one who most likely coached the child in every aspect of life, like how to sit still at the table or how to use a toilet, you are in a way too familiar with each other to build the optimal atmosphere for learning. Instead, a tutor, somebody who can become a friend, but is decidedly from outside of the (inner) family, is foreign enough to be both interesting and respected, and on his side, doesn't connect the childs behaviour to a long history of previous experiences. 

If it could be arranged, I think every intelligent and curious child would profit immensely from having a tutor or counsil in many different fields of interest. Such a person can be both a figure of authority as well as a peer. He can be a peer because he is subordinate to the parents. A public school teacher can never come into that realm, as he is always an extension of state authority. If anything, I would say that sport coaches and private music teachers are in a comparable role today as such a tutor: A somewhat controlled environment, where the child can experience confrontation with the real world under supervision, but outside of the direct control of the parents. Immensely valuable for development. 

Re: Aristocratic tutoring

If you arrange tutors for your child (not just for piano lessons, but for the whole education), how would you do that in an aristocratic fashion? Materially, it is aristocratic by merit of being expensive, exclusive and excentric. Does it need to be aristocratic on a metaphysical level as well? If we understand that question to mean a certain telos to the education, that is, the cultivation of a higher spirit, I would answer in the positive. I am currently in a suboptimal psychological and physical condition, and don't want to elaborate on what a higher spirit is, for fear of missing the mark on a crucial topic in which I am less well versed than the above. But others may have clearer visions that I'd be interested in reading.