"Gritty" Fantasy

[anthony]

I've been playing a CRPG as an experiment. But this is a thread about a general cultural phenomena rather than a video game or video games in general.



This is the game I've been playing. 'The Age of Decadence'. It's a game set in a kind of descent into a dark age period in which 'The Empire', which is just Rome, is falling apart after what seems to have been a war with a foreign barbarian nation empowered by some evil edgy fantasy magic. I don't hate the premise, but it's very stock, very plastic, very trashy, and has a strange kind of pretentiousness to it. The nature of that last trait is what this thread is about.

This is a CRPG, which means it's D&D in a computer. All CRPGs leave me with a profound feeling of "what is the point?" and they do that because they're D&D. And the point of D&D is to serve as a platform for pointless entertainment. It generates rules and settings in which things can happen. And the nature of that "things" part is interchangeable and not really relevant. In the case of D&D it seems to be about the social aspect, with the adventures to stop the malevolent druid dwarf by rolling dice being secondary. And the latter point is really two distinct ones. Stock fantasy and stock mechanical growth and exercise of power adventure.

In CRPGs the social aspect is mostly gone, limited to posting on CRPG enthusiast forums about how CRPGs are dead and will never be good as Fallout1 and Planescape Torment ever again, or posting about retarded soap opera plots in bioware circles I guess. I don't keep up with this. More importantly, the mechanical part seems far more leaned into. With an extreme emphasis on reactivity and your "character" who must be "built" to engage in complex interactions with the world around him.

These games pride themselves on and sell on their options. Their fans take pride in the creative possibilities afforded by "builds" and "options". And can't forget "endings". What is a "choice" if it doesn't influence the "ending". They even have a totem-term for this. "Choices matter". If you can influence an "ending" gamers will say you have made a "choices matter RPG". I'm not making that up, I'm reading this game's steam reviews to catch up on how these people think.

It's a very interesting store page:



"setting and theme" is something I want to go back to after some more brief comments on why CRPGs displease me and why this game didn't take long to strike me as a failure in its intentions. Actually I should cover them both first to contextualise my comments, then I'll elaborate later.

By the game's "setting" they mean its gritty world and by "theme" they mean gritty storytelling. Both of these things mean, hey, there are no KOBOLDS here. This is a story about MEN. And this is DARK fantasy, so MEN are all pathologically dishonest liars and schemers and literally everyone you meet behaves like a cartoon D&D Goblin. But they're MEN so we're HARDCORE WRITERS.



They brag about as much on Steam. They don't just call their characters or approach to conflict a stylistic choice. It's believable. It's about realistic motivations. Sorry kid, put away your pointy wizard hat. This is tough reality for us streetwise guys. You can tell we're hardcore because the game opens with this quote.






Yeah, that sounds like some tough, hardboiled thought from a man who tells it like it really is. Hardboiled thought from... Glen Cook?

There's a problem here. Glen Cook is... a fiction writer. The Black Company is not real. This is a self-advertised "realistic" work which proudly announces that takes its primary influence from fiction. But I'm sure the developers would tell us that The Black Company is also "realistic" fiction. You see where I'm going. Like how "indie" is not about independence, "realism" in the context of genre fiction is not about taking cues from reality, attempting to portray the true spirit of humanity, or anything of the sort. "Realism" is a very specific genre vision.

"Realism" is like a module for your D&D setting, which comes with new character archetypes who say "fuck", everyone's leather armour is some drab shade, and "the guilds" now conspire against each other. The Guards take bribes, the poor are treated meanly by them, The Nobles are corrupt. And so on it goes. There are no malevolent druid dwarfs, but only in the superficial sense. The malevolent druid dwarf is funny because it's a space-filling stock concept that exists to fill a functional purpose, something needs to be killed. Everyone in "Realism" CRPG land is still a malevolent druid dwarf. We have camps of bandits. Raiders. Muggers. etc. These guys are the functional kobolds of course. But everyone is so transparently utilitarian in their purpose that they might as well be a kobold or something equally stupid.

This is not realism. On rare occasions I have heard fans of these games say about as much even, though likely without grasping the significance of the thought. I got this from a video on the developers' next game, 'Colony Ship'.

The studio has three titles in its ludography now, and three
is the smallest number of elements required to create a pattern, allowing us to identify the conventions of the iron
Tower artistic language. what do all these games have in common? Well a very
high combat difficulty is one thing, if you want an impressive body count play a combat specialist. Secondly, Vince has a
very recognizable writing voice the games are somehow both bookish and succinct with plenty of memorable
characters and many quotable lines. I heard the writing described as Grim dark,
and I suppose it's true every character in the age of decadence is a manipulative sociopath protected by
layers of contingency plans. Is this realistic? Probably not. The iodine
deficient individuals inhabiting a post-apocalyptic world would probably not be as articulate and sophisticated
as the game portrays them, but it's like Sorkin said; "the properties of people and the properties of characters have almost
nothing to do with each other." the rules of drama are very much separate from the properties of Life a world world full of
sociopathic manipulators is an excellent platform for an entertaining story.

I couldn't believe when I heard this. A fan of these games instinctively appealing to (and drawing an implied comparison to ) Aaron Sorkin in defense of their obvious and most serious weakness. The first problem here of course is that the games' developers advertise their games using the words "realism" and "realistic" and general appeals to this idea constantly. It is their stated aspiration. They do not intend to be assembling a stylish representation of humanity which serves a particular aesthetic end. They think this is realism. Second, if this is just "properties of characters", what is the point? Why of all ways to write people, write them this way? Aaron Sorkin is a drug addled Jew retard who I personally despise for hiding in the ambiguity of this issue and never pinning himself down. Is he writing a person, or an idea of a person, a person who is an idea? It's obvious how audiences take movies, and he's obviously writing to that, and he's obviously not writing truth either. In his case it's a dodge to spin his way out of being a neurotic jew who writes awful jew social realism which is simultaneously boring and mundane and a completely distorted image of reality.

But enough of poor Aaron, what about Iron Tower? Well, the guy I got the above quote from says this is all about "an entertaining story". He's a CRPG player, which means he is a retarded monkey goblin blind and deaf to art, so we should only expect as much. It is this way to be fun. Like all low-fiction genres, stock characters, tropes, and archetypes. Well this completely blows out the pretension of Iron Tower if true, and I think it is because this guy wasn't trying to be critical. He's not that type. He said the quiet part out loud. He sees it like I do and takes that the opposite way. He recognises that everyone acting like Ralph Townsend's worst impressions of Chinamen is absurd, and does not think to ascribe any creative intention to this because he is a CRPG player and cannot conceive of such things. It's just another stock setting complete with tropes, archetypes, plot beats, and characters.

This is gritty fantasy. It is retarded and somewhat beloved and enduring despite at its heart just being a drab D&D module that replaces Malevolent Druid Dwarfs with Malevolent Guild Merchants.

Now if I take a moment to write about my own experience with the game, and indulge the creators for a little while by actually trying to view the work as though there is intention and vision behind their aesthetic and mechanical choices I think we might get somewhere, potentially gain some more perspective on this thing.



In what was basically an act of spite I decided to play this game as a moralfag swordsman. A kind of test I expect them to fail. The test is, what will fail first, my character, or the imagination and robustness of simulation presented by the developers? I am ready to enter a "realistic" world. I'm not the hero, people won't play fair, I'm in for a rough time. How will I fare as a naive man with good intentions who knows how to use a sword? I was thinking it would be funny to be a kind of ultra-violent and capable but still naive presence, who is magnetic for that. Sort of like Ike from Fire Emblem (interestingly bad character and story I might write about elsewhere sometime).



As 'The Mercenary' my life starts in a post apocalyptic dark age pub, where the guy who runs the place, who is maybe kind of my boss, asks me to defend a guy. At night he's attacked, I get the killers, they get him. Our responses to the situation are very gritty. Unfortunately I also have to respond like a gritlord. I guess I'm a "realistic" mercenary, which means the streets have hardened me into a chinaman with non-existent nerves. Anyway my dead client had a map of some kind of ancient importance, which is now mine. I take it to our local token minority.





"Do you think I might find some malevolent druid dwarfs down there, Feng?"

Anyway I'm out in town now. Let's see how we can talk to who is fit company for us in this cold, gritty world.



Tough but fair. Maybe what this world needs.



Okay maybe they aren't fair either. But perhaps there's an explanation for thi-ACK!



I am beaten, and wake up outside the next day. They did not touch the large amount of money on my person or my stuff. Or kill me even though I am apparently aware of some kind of major power player conspiracy going on in this merciless high stakes world. gritty.

Where to from here? I won't bore you with too many details. The RPG thing happens and the next major plot point, meeting the local noble, is barred by an asshole who won't let me in unless I do something for him. I'm a good guy still, maybe there's an honest solution. One job is to remove men working from another noble house from a mining project, no honest answer there. Honest men doing honest work, Severus the Good won't stop them. Other job is the kidnapped nephew of the noble, off in the local bandit camp. That sounds like hero work.

I go there, there are seven men and the hostage, I try to attack their leader, and they beat me up and send me back to ask for a ransom. I speak to the noble's guy and he wants the situation resolved. "Can I kill them?" he asks? Obviously no, as I just tried. Here the game gives me two options. I can go back and challenge these seven men to combat by myself again, or I can say "no I can't kill them there are too many", and he'll give me the opportunity to tell him about the camp [PERCEPTION CHECK, because EVERY CHARACTER HAS A CHANCE], and if that check fails, like mine did, the men fail to rescue the hostage and the noble's guy gets so mad at me that I can't talk to him anymore. At this point the game appears to be softlocked for my character. A fairly common fate according to reviews, and one that I kind of brought on myself and kind of didn't.

I tried the camp fight a few times, killed a couple of them, couldn't get them all. My character was actually quite good at killing people, I had killed about six people in the town of Startertown over the course of a day because street toughs kept challenging Severus the Good. Severus was looking for them to get [SKILL POINTS] (because this isn't a stupid kobold wizard hat game, KID. You don't LEVEL UP with EXPERIENCE, you get SKILL POINTS. That's totally different fuck you.) but they're street toughs so they deserved it. There were also various minor incidents scattered across the opening town which would grant small amounts of experience for the trouble.

This is where the game really breaks down in my view. That I am supposed to be limited by "realism" and the limits of what my guy can do, because he's just a man and a certain kind of man at that. Only the limits which I'm actually hitting all feel contrived. On one hand there is the experience and levelling, which is absurdly important because of the game's "difficulty". LEVEL is unfortunately more important than general BUILD. If I can't do something it's because I need to patrol the town looking for people who are secretly SKILL POINT pinatas until I get slightly better at it, not because my guy is just too human. The line between success and failure in some critical task is one more mean hobo stabbed to death in an alleyway.

The idea behind this game, in what is in my opinion the most charitable and ambitious reading possible. is that its REALISM would create a kind of emergent realism in my own outlook. The hard limits of my own self-insert's virtual humanity would make me realise I'd have to get my hands dirty to get anywhere in this GRITTY life the world has handed me. I don't dislike that premise. But it's a rather ambitious one, and I dislike the tone of the marketing and tutorials. It feels very haughty and self-satisfied. Like they already know they've pulled it off and can't wait for me to feel stupid doing something that isn't STREETWISE, because I'm not a cool CRPG writer from Canada who gets it and would totally be able to chill with cool nigger.

They would probably be very satisfied with their result. Severus the Good is good at killing and not much else. And he's hit a wall where he just can't kill hard enough. The developers might feel very satisfied with this result. But I'm not. I'm not satisfied because it feels like the limits I have hit are very clearly defined by what they're allowing me to do on an arbitrary level rather than one related to the capacities of my character. I can either fight this camp alone or have men sent who I can only advise in a very general way. Why can't I go with them? Because the developers didn't write that in.

There are people who won the fight at this point in the game. Were they better at the game than me? No, your options for input are so simple as to make skill a virtual non-factor. They got more experience from doing guild quests. How does 'guild quest' reasonably translate to being a significantly better fighter? Well this is a video game so about a day's experience in fighting makes for about a quadruple increase in your ability to do something you had been honing your entire life up to the point the game started.

It strikes me as obvious that a key problem this game has is experience, or SKILL POINTS, as they would have it. This metagaming mechanic of banking potential skyrockets in particular competences to solve particular problems as they emerge is completely absurd, and it would make more sense for them to give me a character with fixed capacities at the start of the game to avoid situations like this. A friend who also played the game recently ran into an experience similar to this and dropped the game in a similarly satisfied and unimpressed mood. It seems to be a general problem.

But my proposed general solution isn't quite complete. Fixed capacities suggests a fixed idea of what I'm meant to be doing. That is actually what I think that this game needs. Firm and clear yes or no answers for every possibility based on a firmer idea of who you are. As it stands the game is very obviously built around and full of signs telling you that you are only meant to do certain things as certain characters. The character is you, but realistically you are building one of about five meaningfully different types.

I've said before that the baseline of any story or message game should be a VN. I imagine this game pitched to me as a producer or publisher, and I see that all of the complete and coherent detail seems to be in this gritty story. But on top of that it's a fully rendered CRPG world. Three dimensions, high interactivity, fully customisable character, almost infinite possibilities, organic and responsive emergent scenarios. Let's say I have extraordinary foresight and can see how the game will come together as made by this guy. I ask what it gets from this particular restrictive vision of open options and interactivity that it wouldn't from being a Visual Novel. I would ask for each element beyond text and flat imagery to be justified. As implemented in this final game I played, can any of it be? I would be very interested to hear a response from someone who likes this game. If there are any here.

I hope you understand from here my problem with the game itself as a potential expressive vision with something to say about people. It tries and fails to back me into a corner for not accepting its worldview. The corners are entirely contrived and mechanical. I am not cornered by the hopeless cruelty of human nature. I am cornered by SKILL POINTS and typical very unimaginative and limited CRPG possibilities for action. Basically playing a choose your own adventure novel that's absolutely full of extremely undramatic bad endings which aren't even endings. My capacity to leverage open-hearted human brilliance against open problems did not hit a wall. I was following a line of fixed and plotted options and took a combination that led to a narrative dead end.

I know I talk about Pikmin and Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Halo as games where you can leverage yourself against problems with total freedom, but you can perhaps fairly argue that these are simpler systems. They are only modelling violence so they can afford the depth without losing on anything else they're supposed to care about. But RPGs that also do this work. The example that comes straight to my mind is 'Gothic'. A game where assholes bully you and you come across plenty of organic incentives to be mean back to the world. And seemingly infinite options to take on the world that's kicking your ass to the point where whatever you do will be a genuinely interesting interplay of your nature and your capabilities. (I am aware that I am rather off track now and just intending to run out some thoughts and hopefully entertain you.)

My first problem with this game is that it fails to use its elements to sell me on grit. I don't feel like I'm in a sad world where I'm forced by the nature of things (which doesn't have to reflect reality) to act as the writers consider appropriate. I feel like I'm in a retarded world where reality arbitrarily bends and warps to make me do what my BUILD is meant to do. I'm in a VN with fake extra steps that punch you in the balls if you have the audacity to try taking them. We can't create open human challenges that CRPGs run on which are actually constraining, so these stories can only coherently be about demigods and overmen. 

Then this leads into the second problem. Why of all things, did they try to write grit and realism? This is adjacent to a few other issues that have come up in other places. It's like every action heroine being a lesbian. It's like moronic cartoon BOOMER SHOOTERS having bad guys explode into red pieces. It's a superficial compensation for a spiritual deficiency. Nobody was upset by this game. Except for maybe a few less patient types who found the soft locking and general CRPG idiocy pointless and absurd. I don't believe that anybody found the nature of this game or its world truly confronting or heavy. The common steam review reaction seems to be "good writing". Which means it's not a cartoon and people state their motivations for things out loud. Good writing is like how FEAR achieved good AI. You need your characters to be announcing they are good for the peanut gallery to get it. FEAR gave us enemy soldiers who scream "I'M MOVING TO COVER THEN I'M GOING TO FLANK THE PLAYER, BECAUSE I'M ARTIFICIALLY INTELLIGENT" during gunfights. While "well written" genre fiction has characters who act like assholes then explain why they're assholes so that the moronic fans can have their minds blown by the idea of fictional people having lives for the 50th time. It's a stock good and challenging signal that will get people to repeat that without thinking about what they mean. It's a very safe way to write.



Was this thread meant to be about the grit thing. I'm sorry I seem to have gotten very sidetracked and written a 2000 word stream of consciousness about hating CRPGs. It's too late for me to fix this now but I still want to post a thread. You guys feel free to talk amongst yourselves, I may fix this tomorrow.

[Trevor Bauer]

(((Gritty)))

[Mason Hall-McCullough]

I don't play CRPGs but this thread makes me think of Darkest Dungeon (actually, turns out that Darkest Dungeon describes itself as a CRPG). The main selling point of the game is supposed to be that it has a dark atmosphere of Lovecraftian horror, and the game is clearly trying to invoke this concept, but it never felt compelling to me.

The game's story is barely existent, you inherit a mansion and explore dungeons underneath it in a linear fashion. The aspects of the game that are presented as if they are supposed to be dark and horrifying, like characters permanently dying or getting negative traits/diseases, ended up being a grindy cause of frustration. You can always get more characters and heal their afflictions, it just takes time to earn enough gold, so the risk doesn't feel real. I found the combat challenging and interesting for the first half of the game at least, but if the developers weren't able to cobble together enough competency to polish the core gameplay mechanics I imagine the game would have flopped.

The game tried so hard to create this horror atmosphere with many unnecessary details and edgy made-up quotes read by an audiobook narrator, that it felt kitschy and inauthentic. Darkest Dungeon's understanding of Lovecraft seems to be limited to "freaky sea monsters and going insane and stuff" and it shoves this in your face at every opportunity. Characters of the same class are all-but indistinguishable and replaceable, so the game struggles to evoke much of a response from the player when they are harmed beyond surprise at jumpscare traps. Darkest Dungeon is a game that is themed around the idea of being scary and dark rather than a game that is actually scary and dark.

[anthony]

I don't play CRPGs but this thread makes me think of Darkest Dungeon (actually, turns out that Darkest Dungeon describes itself as a CRPG). The main selling point of the game is supposed to be that it has a dark atmosphere of Lovecraftian horror, and the game is clearly trying to invoke this concept, but it never felt compelling to me.

The game's story is barely existent, you inherit a mansion and explore dungeons underneath it in a linear fashion. The aspects of the game that are presented as if they are supposed to be dark and horrifying, like characters permanently dying or getting negative traits/diseases, ended up being a grindy cause of frustration. You can always get more characters and heal their afflictions, it just takes time to earn enough gold, so the risk doesn't feel real. I found the combat challenging and interesting for the first half of the game at least, but if the developers weren't able to cobble together enough competency to polish the core gameplay mechanics I imagine the game would have flopped.

The game tried so hard to create this horror atmosphere with many unnecessary details and edgy made-up quotes read by an audiobook narrator, that it felt kitschy and inauthentic. Darkest Dungeon's understanding of Lovecraft seems to be limited to "freaky sea monsters and going insane and stuff" and it shoves this in your face at every opportunity. Characters of the same class are all-but indistinguishable and replaceable, so the game struggles to evoke much of a response from the player when they are harmed beyond surprise at jumpscare traps. Darkest Dungeon is a game that is themed around the idea of being scary and dark rather than a game that is actually scary and dark.

If that game were Japanese it'd be at most 6 hours long, and it'd be possible to lose. But it's western so it's 100 hours long, impossible to lose, and full of niggers in early modern europe. Like I say with every game I have to ask if they wouldn't have been better served in their alleged intentions by making a VN. But there isn't really enough substance or apparent concern for that part to hold as a constant sustained flow of material. It's a cardboard set backdrop. But the game part also feels like it's barely strung along to convey the point. Like the "gameplay" of a hentai game or something. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone in Japan has already made Hentai Darkest Dungeon and it's better.

[chevalier]

That does exist, it's called Dohna Dohna. It takes the gameplay of Darkest Dungeon and puts it into a modern setting where you use anime prostittues to fight oppression or something. It looks like it's selling itself more on the style than anything else.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone in Japan has already made Hentai Darkest Dungeon and it's better.

[anthony]

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

---

Setting: The Broken Spire Wastelands

In a world ravaged by cataclysmic events and forgotten civilizations, the Broken Spire Wastelands stand as a harsh testament to the fragility of existence. Once a thriving hub of technology and magic, this desolate expanse is now a barren landscape of twisted metal, shattered cities, and treacherous wilderness. The sky is perpetually veiled in an eerie, shifting miasma, casting an otherworldly glow upon the ruined remnants of a bygone era. Anarchy and lawlessness reign as various factions vie for power, and survival is a constant struggle against both the savage land and ruthless opportunists.

The Event: The Awakening of the Maelstrom Engine

The Broken Spire Wastelands had long been a realm of ruin and decay, each forsaken relic whispering tales of a civilization that dared to wield forces beyond comprehension. Among these relics was the Maelstrom Engine, a colossal machine rumored to harness the very essence of creation itself. For centuries, it lay dormant, buried beneath layers of earth and rubble, guarded by legends and superstitions.

The calm was shattered when a charismatic warlord known as Lord Kael Voss rose to power, uniting a horde of desperate followers under his crimson banner. Lord Voss sought dominion over the wastelands, and he believed the Maelstrom Engine to be the key to his supremacy. With his forces, he systematically excavated the ancient machine, defying the warnings of those who knew the tales of the past.

Upon its unearthing, a cataclysmic event was unleashed – the skies tore open, unleashing torrents of swirling energy that distorted reality itself. The very fabric of space and time was rent asunder, and the once-shrouded spires that stood sentinel over the wastelands crumbled into nothingness. The Maelstrom Engine's awakening had ruptured the barriers between worlds, opening portals to dimensions inhabited by eldritch horrors and untold powers.
As reality twisted, individuals from disparate walks of life were drawn into the maelstrom. Bound by destiny, they find themselves gifted with newfound abilities and cursed with the knowledge that only they can stem the tide of chaos. With Lord Voss now wielding the power of the Maelstrom Engine and his ambitions escalating beyond the wastelands, this unlikely group of heroes must navigate the treacherous terrain, forge uneasy alliances, and confront their own inner demons to harness the enigmatic forces unleashed by the machine.

The Broken Spire Wastelands will either birth a new era forged from the ashes of devastation or be consumed by the very forces it dared to awaken. The fate of this shattered world hangs in the balance, and only the intrepid few who dare to rise against the storm can shape its outcome.

THE FACTIONS

Crimson Dominion:
Led by the charismatic warlord Lord Kael Voss, the Crimson Dominion seeks to establish an iron-fisted rule over the wastelands. They are deeply invested in harnessing the power of the Maelstrom Engine to reshape reality itself. The faction is known for its ruthless ambition, militaristic discipline, and fanatical devotion to Lord Voss. They employ advanced technology salvaged from the ruins and have managed to unite several smaller tribes under their crimson banner. The Dominion's iron grip promises stability, but at the cost of freedom and individuality.

Nomads of the Shifting Sands:
A loosely knit alliance of survivalists and scavengers, the Nomads navigate the wastelands with adaptability and cunning. They have learned to live off the land, scavenging resources and mastering the art of guerrilla warfare. Their mobile encampments and resourcefulness keep them one step ahead of other factions. The Nomads value individual freedom and self-sufficiency above all else, and their fiercely independent nature often makes them wary of alliances.

Order of the Obsidian Veil:
Drawing inspiration from ancient mysticism and forbidden knowledge, the Order of the Obsidian Veil seeks to restore balance to the wastelands by containing the power unleashed by the Maelstrom Engine. This secretive and enigmatic faction is comprised of scholars, mystics, and magic users who guard the boundary between worlds. They believe in the potential for redemption and seek to protect the world from the horrors that have been unleashed. However, their methods can be cold and detached, often necessitating morally complex decisions.

Rustborn Collective:
The Rustborn Collective is a loose alliance of scavenging tribes, artisans, and mechanics who see beauty in the decay of the old world. They've harnessed the remnants of technology to create hodgepodge machinery and weaponry, embracing a peculiar harmony between magic and mechanics. The faction values creativity, self-expression, and innovation. They view the wastelands as a canvas upon which to leave their mark, even if it means embracing the dangerous and unpredictable aspects of the Maelstrom Engine's power.



Enemies (with whom to be engaged with in "COMBAT")

Maelstrom Abominations:
As a result of the Maelstrom Engine's activation, interdimensional rifts have opened, allowing nightmarish creatures to spill into the wastelands. These eldritch abominations possess unnatural abilities and often defy the laws of reality. Players will need to adapt their tactics and strategies to counter these otherworldly foes.

Crimson Dominion Enforcers:
The forces of the Crimson Dominion, led by Lord Kael Voss, are a constant threat to anyone who opposes their rule. Equipped with advanced technology and fanatical loyalty, these enforcers are formidable opponents in combat. Players will need to outmaneuver and outwit them to survive and advance their goals.

Wasteland Raiders:
Scattered bands of ruthless raiders roam the wastelands, preying on the weak and scavenging for resources. These lawless groups are adept at ambushes, hit-and-run tactics, and guerilla warfare. Players must be vigilant and ready to defend themselves against these opportunistic adversaries.

Mystical Cultists:
Drawn to the power of the Maelstrom Engine, various cults and sects have emerged, each with its own interpretation of the cataclysmic event. These cultists wield dark magic and esoteric rituals, making them formidable opponents for players who cross their paths. Dealing with these cults often involves uncovering their motivations and unraveling their arcane secrets
Anomalies and Environmental Hazards:
The wastelands themselves pose a threat, with unstable magic-infused areas and unpredictable phenomena that can harm or hinder players. Anomalies can distort reality, altering the battlefield and creating unique challenges that players must navigate.

Infected Corruptions:
The Maelstrom Engine's influence has led to the emergence of corruptive forces that taint the land and its inhabitants. Creatures mutated by this corruption become hostile and dangerous, forcing players to confront both the supernatural and the biological dangers within the wastelands.

Bounty Hunters and Mercenaries:
As chaos reigns in the wastelands, skilled bounty hunters and mercenaries seek to profit from the turmoil. These skilled individuals are often equipped with a variety of weapons and tactics, posing a challenge to players who become the target of their pursuit.

Ancient Guardians:
The remnants of the old world sometimes awaken as guardians of forgotten secrets and treasures. These ancient automatons and constructs are relics of a bygone era, and players must uncover their weaknesses while evading their powerful attacks.


I can see the Steam reviews pouring in now. "Well written". "A world which makes sense." etc.

[Guest]

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

And now fix this to make it actually good.

[Recent Friend]

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

And now fix this to make it actually good.

Anthony's world is "complete". You can launch multimedia with it, but something like a unique art style would have to carry it.

It's longer than Killer 7's world building FMV. What's cool about that is it only happens after the first chapter is completed, like an interpretation after a dream.

Factions are a holdover from RPG rule sets. It's like doing the work to find out who's necessary to keep a city running; The Plumber faction, the Electrician faction, the McDonald's employees.

[a system is failing]

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

Submitting it to Passage Prize 3 in the form of a novella.

[Lohengrin]

I shall now apply the 'based' viewing to make this vision more palatable.

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

---

THE FACTIONS

Crimson Dominion: ZOG

Nomads of the Shifting Sands: Bronze Age Pervert

Order of the Obsidian Veil: QAnon and the Amarna Forum

Rustborn Collective: Solarpunk Communists


Enemies (with whom to be engaged with in "COMBAT")

Maelstrom Abominations: Niggers

Crimson Dominion Enforcers: Libtards

Wasteland Raiders: Spics

Mystical Cultists: Jews

Infected Corruptions: Trannies

Bounty Hunters and Mercenaries: BAP Followers

Ancient Guardians: Other Niggers


I can see the Steam reviews pouring in now. "Well written". "A world which makes sense." etc.

Indeed, it makes much sense to me now, and hopefully for all the rest. Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to watch The Northman...


In all seriousness, the tryhard nature of such putative 'gritty' works baffles me so.  Where's the actual violence, where's the rape?  I have never watched nor attempted to watch Game of Thrones, nor even read its original literary form A Song of Ice and Fire, but between those who have I have come with the impression that it's little more than trashiness for the sake of repugnancy as spawned from the dark recluses of George R. R. Martin's mired mind.  To exalt other works in juxtaposition is not my design, but I do wish to shed light upon the abhorrent and typically American media landscape in the domain of television.  As I haven't the misfortune of engaging any part of it I invite others who have to expound in better detail for me, but select lines on Wikipedia are more than enough to suffice.

Themes

The series has been praised by both television critics and historians for what was perceived as a sort of medieval realism.[15][16][17] George R. R. Martin set out to make the story feel more like historical fiction than contemporary fantasy, with less emphasis on magic and sorcery and more on battles, political intrigue, and the characters, believing that magic should be used moderately in the epic fantasy genre.[18][19][20] Martin has said that, "the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves".[21]... A common theme in the fantasy genre is the battle between good and evil, which Martin says does not mirror the real world.[25]

Finally... fantasy for ADULTS...

In early seasons, under the influence of the A Song of Ice and Fire books, main characters were regularly killed off, and this was credited with developing tension among viewers.[28] Martin stated in an interview that he wanted to depict war and violence in a realistic way, which sometimes mean the hero or main characters could be injured or killed.[29]

"Look kid... you'll never hold any agency to inflict your will upon the world, so don't even bother... suck it up and let fate run its course..."

Coming from an impoverished family background of former wealth, Martin always felt attracted to stories of fallen civilizations and lost empires. The lost empire of Valyria in Ice and Fire was once a high civilization similar to Rome before the Dark Ages. These elements may give the story a poignant sadness.[17] The Wall, which Martin believes to be unique in fantasy,[18] was inspired by Martin's visit to Hadrian's Wall in the North of England close to the border with Scotland.

The Wall... and yet our President was unfairly castigated for his desire in constructing such a great Wall...

Food

Food is such a central element in the Ice and Fire series that some critics have accused Martin of "gratuitous feasting".[72]

...

Martin attended Mary Jane Donohoe School and later Marist High School. While there he became an avid comic-book fan, developing a strong interest in the superheroes being published by Marvel Comics,[25] and later credited Stan Lee for being one of his greatest literary influences; "Maybe Stan Lee is the greatest literary influence on me, even more than Shakespeare or Tolkien."[26]

I refrain from advancing any further, but as said I do invite any to take my place in examining this work in better detail than I.

My first problem with this game is that it fails to use its elements to sell me on grit. I don't feel like I'm in a sad world where I'm forced by the nature of things (which doesn't have to reflect reality) to act as the writers consider appropriate. I feel like I'm in a retarded world where reality arbitrarily bends and warps to make me do what my BUILD is meant to do. I'm in a VN with fake extra steps that punch you in the balls if you have the audacity to try taking them. We can't create open human challenges that CRPGs run on which are actually constraining, so these stories can only coherently be about demigods and overmen. 

One last comment, in The Elder Scrolls, Todd allows you to murder the homeless to relatively little consequence. I suppose that's not gritty enough for the arbiters of taste and good judgement who have bestowed upon us this wonderful CRPG.

[JohnTrent]

This was a post sitting in my post drafts around 8-11-23. I have taken effort in editing and expanding certain parts of it, but the majority of it has been unchanged. I wasn't sure if it was that on-topic, but figured it may as well be posted.

---

When we speak on this subject, we then speak about a lack of creativity. I have no affiliation with grimdark or anything like that, so I don't have anything prescriptive to add.

I hate that some of my posts end up becoming a quotation-book of sorts, but I am reminded of Raymond Chandler's essay The Simple Art of Murder: in it, he made reference to a detective story writer by the name of Dorothy Sayers, who had said the detective story could never compare to "first-rate literature" — such stories, at their best, can only be second-rate, and having a downward potential thereafter. Previously the essay had mentioned that the "average novel" is unpublished, but the average detective novel is both published and read, so the belief isn't unjustified. Here is an excerpt from Chandler responding to this charge:

I think what was gnawing at her mind was the slow realization that her kind of detective story was an arid formula which could not even satisfy its own implications. It was second-grade literature because it was not about the things that could make first-grade literature. If it started out to be about real people (and she could write about them — her minor characters show that), they must very soon do unreal things in order to form the artificial pattern required by the plot. When they did unreal things, they ceased to be real themselves. They became puppets and cardboard lovers and paper-mache villains and detectives of exquisite and impossible gentility.

The only kind of writer who could be happy with these properties was the one who did not know what reality was.

The struggle in this situation is the attempt to straddle between real and unreal, fiercely attempting not to fall into bathos or mediocrity. This can be found in the troubled position of "Gritty Fantasy", but the problem is not as perceptible to the Gritty Fantasy writer as it is to the writer of detective stories. To speak more clearly, the issues with Gritty Fantasy are distinct from genre predecessors precisely because the writers do not feel any conflict over being "second-rate" or "mediocre"; at any rate, they feel far more secure than those who had tried to overcome inferior quality. 

The example of this is right there in quoting Aaron Sorkin, and it can be easily concluded that Sorkin is the best example of a writer "who did not know what reality was". Instead of creating something that evokes the unreal, the Sorkin-ite creates a diminutive product of reality; he subordinates reality to a base design, limited to the his rules. This element of control is potentially promising in other hands, but not in his. This separation between reality and the character is not built by intention or any informed thought, but by defense. It is almost as if he conceived it for the purpose of defending his position as a "serious scriptwriter". You can see that the developers caught onto this because they likewise decided to borrow it for a defensive purpose. "You shouldn't have an expectation of full realism!", which implies that, if you find the final result questionable in certain areas, this entails a nitpicking attitude. If the thought of iodine deficiency and limited intellect entered their heads during the writing process (I am assuming so), why was it ignored? Is the player supposed to ignore this too? This is an uncomfortable position for them, because they can defend the idea of "total creative freedom", but they are still threatened by the retort of the real world. It did cross my mind that I was overthinking this, but then I remembered that the (ostensible) point of Gritty Fantasy and the Grimdark is to meld reality and fantasy together — whatever the writer thinks about sociopathy or "evil behavior" will usually take priority over good behavior, and this is supposed to be how things "really work" in the world. The Sorkin quote reveals deep faults in this project.

The discussion of realism and what constitutes an accurate depiction is inexhaustible, and I might eventually discuss this further in the Hysterical Realism and the End of the Novel thread, but I will state the root of the issue briefly: the 21st C. Western artist is perpetually stuck in a blindfold. Even in circumstances such as a post-apocalyptic world, both the nature of the game and its world is characterized by myopia. They have not properly thought out all the possible options that the player may make, and concurrently there is a problem of the world itself. If the game/VN/Novel is "realistic", does it contain a "meticulous technique of creation", "experimental probity", or a "formidable power of demonstration" [quote from Celine's Homage to Zola lecture]? If it is unreal, is it a self-contained work that can exist on its own terms? The stakes are too high for most, especially those that do not have comprehensive minds. There are shades of myopia here, where reality is ran through an assembly line of already-conceived notions: TVTropes, Hollywood scripts, etc. all facilitate this. The skill of observation is stifled, so now most facets of creativity are affected as well. This is why any portrayal of an Incel (1.0 or 2.0) will resemble the Law & Order Gamergate episode. There are works of art that have been refused existence because of these mental restraints.

---

Post ends here, was planning on adding more but am not in a position to right now.

[anthony]

---

The example of this is right there in quoting Aaron Sorkin, and it can be easily concluded that Sorkin is the best example of a writer "who did not know what reality was". Instead of creating something that evokes the unreal, the Sorkin-ite creates a diminutive product of reality; he subordinates reality to a base design, limited to the his rules. This element of control is potentially promising in other hands, but not in his. This separation between reality and the character is not built by intention or any informed thought, but by defense. It is almost as if he conceived it for the purpose of defending his position as a "serious scriptwriter". You can see that the developers caught onto this because they likewise decided to borrow it for a defensive purpose. "You shouldn't have an expectation of full realism!", which implies that, if you find the final result questionable in certain areas, this entails a nitpicking attitude. If the thought of iodine deficiency and limited intellect entered their heads during the writing process (I am assuming so), why was it ignored? Is the player supposed to ignore this too? This is an uncomfortable position for them, because they can defend the idea of "total creative freedom", but they are still threatened by the retort of the real world. It did cross my mind that I was overthinking this, but then I remembered that the (ostensible) point of Gritty Fantasy and the Grimdark is to meld reality and fantasy together — whatever the writer thinks about sociopathy or "evil behavior" will usually take priority over good behavior, and this is supposed to be how things "really work" in the world. The Sorkin quote reveals deep faults in this project.

A friend of mine once described Aaron Sorkin's tone in a video talking about his writing, he said "he sounds like he's talking to himself in a mirror to justify his work". Defensive is very much the recurring theme when this stuff is discussed by people on its side. An awareness that this is all lacking. I think it says a lot more than was intended, an unintentional self-attack of genius, to use Aaron Sorkin to defend the crpg. That's how far the problem has spread from the same root. We have mountains of retarded, pointless media, which rather than reflecting and expressing humanity bends it into certain forms we've come to expect and tolerate. But what are these forms and what are they for? Detective fiction is about making entertaining human-based logic puzzles. What does the gritty fantasy's concessions gain us in return? An excuse to go into the dungeon and stab goblins to get their treasure at best. If you're into that, fine. But Age of Decadence was made for the discerning Gritty Fantasy connessoir who wants to love the second rate parts behind to appreciate... what? It feels to me a bit like a detective story without a mystery. People deciding they just like detective fiction characters as an alternative to humanity. That's the CRPG.

And Aaron Sorkin. If he's not writing people, what is he writing? Why does he exist?

[Guest]

One of the common themes of this thing "gritty fantasy" is that no one can be trusted, betrayal is rampant, etc. Another is that many of the people in conflict are in it just for "power" where power seems to be control over a region or people for the sake of having this power.
It is the easy way out, because you can always make things "happen" with such characters so that they are surprising etc. Instead of the key players having some vision, clear or unclear, it is just base impulse endlessly. The writer will then smile and say, "man is a base creature". At this point I press a button on a box in my pocket, and the floor turns to snakes who promptly bite the writer 1,000 times.
They will still moralize even in such plays with the classic "muh sad rape" and "muh based rape revenge". Maybe another writer could curry favor with a gritty, pedophile hunter character (probably already exists.) You cheer as the gritty antihero enforces the moral law of the land. If there are other concerns, these things will be applied to.
I will say it's not isolated to CRPGs. See Tactics Ogre, Final Fantasy Tactics, SaGa games, etc. for more of the same. It's a way to make the stupid feel as if they see the real world. As a good laugh, the people who worship the first two games mentioned above will ardently claim that they are good because they are "inspired by the Yugoslav war."

[Oldblood]

Since I've been reading them I've thought about writing down some thoughts.
I avoided GRR Martin's books for a while because of what I'd seen and heard of him but I have really quite enjoyed them. Though, admittedly I skim and skip here and there. The degree of leftism found is generally overstated by RWers and Liberals alike, both using speculation of the author's views as evidence rather than what is present in the text itself. I don't for a second imagine Martin truly finds utility in feudal tenure or virtue in virginity but he keeps a tone that is impartial enough for me to tolerate. There hasn't (so far) been a "Well so what is she's no longer a maiden, are you man enough to step up?" sort of moment. Fats, whores and foreigners are given their comeuppance and ridicule, even by the well-liked protagonists.
Much of the poz in the series is invented or embellished by the (((Showrunners))) and there is a precise drop in quality from where they stop using source material. They also removed many of the fantastical elements of which there is significantly more in the books. It wasn't until later when it was decided they were beyond the immaturity of old school fantasy, as can be seen by the original book covers.


The profanity and MO'FUGGIN GORE I think are honest attempts at world texture rather than appeals to the soykike celebration of their 'grittiness'.
While much is made of the grim aftermath of war and conquest he cannot help but frequently include sensationalised moments of heroism in battle, betraying the image he likes to portray himself as a conscientious objector.

Where Martin's modernity really seeps through the cracks is shown in his portrayal of religiosity which is bare. Most of the main and important characters are atheists/anti-theists and faith plays a small part in the life of those that aren't. The contradiction lies then in the esteem placed in concepts like sworn vows, duty and reverence to Kings. Such doctrine was sacred because of divine mandate and without sincere faith the motivation to upkeep them feels flat and contrived.

The injection of MO'FUGGIN LORE in every page can be wearisome but at least the names of locations and people are for the most part anglicised. Though that begs the question - when so much of the world building is just taking pages out of English history, why doesn't the 'lore-keeper' fandom just cut out the middle man? I suppose its simplicity makes it attractive and even I am guilty of searching the wikis from time to time.

[anthony]

Since I've been reading them I've thought about writing down some thoughts.
I avoided GRR Martin's books for a while because of what I'd seen and heard of him but I have really quite enjoyed them. Though, admittedly I skim and skip here and there. The degree of leftism found is generally overstated by RWers and Liberals alike, both using speculation of the author's views as evidence rather than what is present in the text itself. I don't for a second imagine Martin truly finds utility in feudal tenure or virtue in virginity but he keeps a tone that is impartial enough for me to tolerate. There hasn't (so far) been a "Well so what is she's no longer a maiden, are you man enough to step up?" sort of moment. Fats, whores and foreigners are given their comeuppance and ridicule, even by the well-liked protagonists.
Much of the poz in the series is invented or embellished by the (((Showrunners))) and there is a precise drop in quality from where they stop using source material. They also removed many of the fantastical elements of which there is significantly more in the books. It wasn't until later when it was decided they were beyond the immaturity of old school fantasy, as can be seen by the original book covers.


The profanity and MO'FUGGIN GORE I think are honest attempts at world texture rather than appeals to the soykike celebration of their 'grittiness'.
While much is made of the grim aftermath of war and conquest he cannot help but frequently include sensationalised moments of heroism in battle, betraying the image he likes to portray himself as a conscientious objector.

Where Martin's modernity really seeps through the cracks is shown in his portrayal of religiosity which is bare. Most of the main and important characters are atheists/anti-theists and faith plays a small part in the life of those that aren't. The contradiction lies then in the esteem placed in concepts like sworn vows, duty and reverence to Kings. Such doctrine was sacred because of divine mandate and without sincere faith the motivation to upkeep them feels flat and contrived.

That Aidan McClear character I don't like wrote about GRRM and ASoIaF (or the tv show, I forget) from this wrong reflexive condescending 'RW' position you allude to at the start of your post. Speculation on what GRRM is projected onto the work rather than seeing the work as GRRM attempting to tell you who he is and what he believes. The short way I put GRRM is that he knew and greatly respected Gene Wolfe. ASoIaF is not a seedy jewish subversion of Tolkien, it has barely anything to do with Tolkien. That's just the marketing team's pitch. These books are more like The Solar Cycle written by a disillusioned hippie boomer who can't bring himself to believe in God and also no longer has idealistic faith in man. But who also respects history and human nature even if he doesn't like them.

Wolfe's picture of humanity could be equally bleak and hopeless, but he would frame things in his strange long-view Catholicism hardened by an unflinching acknowledgement of all of the worst in the world. Wolfe is heavily influenced by De Maistre, who saw the French Revolution, and he personally fought in Korea and was presumably almost killed by human waves of insane half-starved chinamen charging to bugle-calls.

Wolfe we could say turned out a far more complete man than GRRM. I don't mean that as a point against the latter, it's just how things are. Wolfe fought in a war then got into a professional line of work to occupy him for a whole working life while raising a family and writing on the side. GRRM was a hippie boomer conscientious objector turned somewhat successful genre writer whose life seems to have been a run of disappointments, disillusionments, falling outs, and pain. With the ending defined by this monkey-paw's success of idiotic Jews making his work into a bad but successful tv show.

GRRM is completely miserable I believe, but he has his own kind of moral courage. I don't believe that he flinches when looking at the world. Remember this man wrote Sam, who acknowledges that he's a coward. And Jon thinks that maybe his honesty is a kind of bravery. From that foundational honesty he can look at the world clearly. McClear if I recall correctly suggests that GRRM even if not intentionally subverts reality because his skewed dork-brain can't process HONOUR and the power of masculine cooperation. Basically takes GRRM to be writing "gritty fiction" lore where evil bullies win everything forever by being evil. But that's not just shallow and disrespectful, betrays an obvious lack of curiosity about GRRM's personality as revealed by the work, it's also just not even a correct interpretation of what's happening in ASoIaF. The wave of corruption and betrayal that hits the Seven Kingdoms in the events of the novels is considered a time of complete calamity in which everything goes to complete hell in a very uniquely bad way. And basically everyone who participates in a particularly unscrupulous way is burning something far more valuable in the process (goodwill, trust, stability) for short term gain and many pay for it quite badly even in the unfinished state of the series so far. Cooperation and good will do pay in ASoIaF. The reputation of Ned Stark has inspired more than one wave of posthumous vengeance. The reputation and integrity of Stannis has plenty of non-zealot men ready to suffer hell and die for him. The Freys (the most infamous traitors in the story) have gone from a prolific rat-nest of a family to a genuine extinction risk because everyone hates them so much (and the point where the last Frey plot left off implies that their last chance at redemption and recovery is the smallest and most noble (in character) of the family line daring an act of extreme heroism and potentially setting himself up as a future family head).

Sanity has to win, if not pure moral decency. Sanity is civility is decency which comes around to decency being a kind of indirect power which can potentially exert incredible force over the world. GRRM is not a leftist deceiver or subverter. The kind of person who believes so is the kind of idiot who betrays a deep insecurity on their own beliefs, not wanting them even looked at or talked about lest they collapse at a touch.

Also for a point nobody really goes into if you want more GRRM lore, he touched on some very RW themes a lot of people here would probably appreciate in his story And Seven Times Never Kill Man. If I didn't tell you it was his you could take this story written by some extreme rightist. Or an extreme leftist. It's really open in that way. He's looking and sharing, not telling. Read it and make of it what you will if you want to study GRRM and what may or may not be his politics.

The injection of MO'FUGGIN LORE in every page can be wearisome but at least the names of locations and people are for the most part anglicised. Though that begs the question - when so much of the world building is just taking pages out of English history, why doesn't the 'lore-keeper' fandom just cut out the middle man? I suppose its simplicity makes it attractive and even I am guilty of searching the wikis from time to time.

Even though the man himself is kind of a sperg who I think just kind of incidentally came to really deeply appreciate GRRM through being an insectoid lorefag, Preston Jacobs' videos on ASoIaF and GRRM in general are really interesting and raise a lot of fascinating points about the finer details of these stories which a lot of people take to be incidental clutter. The LORE often has both narrative and thematic depth which you can easily miss, both on account of subtlety and the fact this story is thousands of pages long (it's very easy to not have the relevant parts in your head at the right moment to put things together as revealed to you, the clues are so far apart).

[Oldblood]

That Aidan McClear character I don't like wrote about GRRM and ASoIaF 

Thanks for your reply. I had the Aidan essay in mind writing that post and felt it was wildly unfair, you precisely point out why.
I think I will try Wolfe after I finish A dance with dragons, I heard 'Shadow of the torturer' is very good.

[anthony]

That Aidan McClear character I don't like wrote about GRRM and ASoIaF 

Thanks for your reply. I had the Aidan essay in mind writing that post and felt it was wildly unfair, you precisely point out exactly why.
I think I will try Wolfe after I finish A dance with dragons, I heard 'Shadow of the torturer' is very good.

I really love Wolfe's work. 

Typically I recommend starting with 'The Fifth Head of Cerberus', but most people don't listen. Recently had success on that though, someone finally did and greatly enjoyed it. Thematically it does everything that defines Wolfe all in one book, and it was his first real success. Sets you up very well to appreciate his later work, you'll have all the right things in mind from here. Book of the New Sun is very good, but it's also the meme book. Much recommended, not too much appreciated perhaps.

[Guest]

As a stylistic exercise I have written a general outline for a "gritty fantasy setting".

---

Setting: The Broken Spire Wastelands

The Event: The Awakening of the Maelstrom Engine



Lord Kael Voss

Finally after countless life and death battles through Babels Tower the heroic five broke down the door to Lord Kael Voss’ throne room. 

Wraith Holiday: “Your evil stops here Kael! If morality is determined by the strong then I’ll beat you and become the strongest.”

Lord Kael Voss: “HAHAHAHA, you still remember that joke from when I killed father paplo, the former leader to the Nomads of the Shifting sands. Such a quaint mind you have for entangling yourself into the paltry lives of this worlds wretched residents. But this will soon no longer matter. The Maelstrom Engine, in the coming moments, by achieving zenith, will allow me to merge with the dark god. Eternal reign over not only the Broken Spire Wastelands, but eclipsing all possible realities where the darkness of the human heart prevails, shall soon be the only possibility.”

Sakura Kinomoto: “Then we will just have to defeat you before that happens. Let’s show him the power of our bond. Both you and the Maelstrom Engine will be destroyed.”

Celine Vipiana: “Yeah, don’t take us lightly! We might all come from different worlds but we were all cast into this one together. Together is how we’ve survived in this messed up world and together is how we’ll beat you.”

Mario Prada: “No matter how many Crimson Domination Enforcers we fought, or Maelstrom Abominations we slaughtered, it was always us who came out on top. Not even the might of an Ancient Guardian could set us back.”

Ferdinand Porsche: “Betrayed by the Rustborn Collective and tricked by the Order of the Obsidian Veil, as long as we had each other nothing could stand in our way. That includes you too Lord Kael Voss. That power is too great for one man, no one should have it.”

Wraith Holiday: “Together we are unstoppable, together justice prevails.”

Lord Kael Voss: “All so touching, but is shows just how small you all are. Small like the grains of sand that cover the Broken Spire Wastelands. All great things eventually return to that sand from which they spawned. The grandest mountains and highest towers are consumed and assimilated by the rubble that surrounds them. Ozymandias too was humbled by sand. But I am not the same vain fool, my ambitions are greater. Through unity with the dark god my will shall reign eternal. Sand? Mountain? King? What does it all amount to when compared to a god? HAHAHAHAHA.”

‘A god?’ Wraith Holiday thought. If all of his actions amounted to nothing more then grains of sand in the heavenly scale of justice how was he to ever truly make justice real? A man can only aspire towards justice, but a god could make it law. Looking back at his valiant comrades a tear rolled down his cheek.

Mario Prada: “Wraith what are yo—“

Celine Vipiana: “No sto—“

Sakura Kinomoto: “Why are you doing thi—“

Ferdinand Porsche: “You bastard! I’ll ki—“

Lord Kael Voss watched the amusing display unfold before him. Over the corpses of his former comrades Wraith Holiday wept tears filled with the deepest grief. The Maelstrom Energy rose from the corpses like smoke, and all convened in the virile form of Wraith Holiday. 

Wraith Holiday: “I won’t let your sacrifices be in vain. With your added strength I’ll make justice real.”

[Illustrious]

AoD's head dev is Ukrainian. Underrail is another example of gritty slav RPG.

[Unformed Golem]

"'Realism' is just a module for your D&D setting" -- incredible line @anthony.

"Age of Decadence" has an interesting history: the (anon) developer used to be an admin on RPGcodex and the entire concept for the game was basically to implement a CRPG that did everything right in accordance with the 'codex communitay's TVTropes r/vexillology moderator-poweruserbase consensus on what the ideal CRPG should be.  Personally I think the effort deserves some respect -- a Very Online forum poster managed to will his vision into reality with at least marginal commercial success and acclaim despite obvious deficiencies in talent.  But, at the end of the day it's still bad.

I will defend the "CRPG" although that's not the point of this post, which is to connect the "bad gayme" aspects of AoD and similar media to their grit.  The Aaron Sorkin and (lol) Glen Cook quotes point you in the right direction: these people are shallow and dull, and Grittyness is a more or less conscious attempt to cover this up.

The CRPG is part of a tradition (western fantasy) that includes plenty of first-rate authors and Good Games.  The conversation about GRRM is a great illustration.  Even though GRRM is kind of a fat mediocrity, he has done the work to engage with this tradition.  He spent many years writing before he struck it big with ASOIAF which was -- this is important -- intended I think as a sort of response to the manner in which 1980s high fantasy (think Dragonlance or Pern, or Shannara) had become too unmoored from historical fact and reality.  I know Martin made that infamous statement about "Aragorn's tax policy" but I think he was partly just being provocative -- historical realism and simulation is a longstanding aspect of western fantasy and again, I believe his real objections were to authors like Anne McCaffrey or Terry Brooks, who were actually active as GRRM's writing career developed.

Where this gets worse than what GRRM was doing and produces bad games like AoD is when all of this stuff gets discarded in favor of simulacra simulacrorum.  GRRM didn't only look at, say, Glen Cook and say that "I want to make The Black Company but with MORE WORLDBUILDING" or "Tad Williams with more politics and sociopathic characters".  Mostly, he was trying to build a somewhat imitative fantasy story but incorporating his own knowledge of actual (e.g. Hadrian's Wall, the War of the Roses).  One of the reasons traditions last is because you can create good things through sheer imitation + minor riffs.

AoDecadence on the other hand pretty much only looked at superficial aspects of CRPGs (elves, wizards) along with cargo-cult worship of media like the Gold Box CRPGs (==HARD).  "How do we make our RPG serious?  Replace fake shit like dwarfs with REAL things like greedy merchants, get rid of magic (god's not real!!!) and make it HARD by requiring HARD WORK (grinding skill points) to get better".  You just end up with a shitty Divine Divinity reskin because fantasy races are aestheticized human types, "magic" is a actually an abstraction of several interesting things, and the old games were hard partly because you couldn't look up how to beat them on the Internet and partly because of design flaws but this was easily ignored because nothing better had come before.  But you excuse all of this by saying, well, it's REALISTIC.  But if I want Realism I can play ARMA, or go outside, or operate a forklift in a warehouse.