Internet Tranny Sociology Thread
#81
(10-12-2022, 09:27 AM)anthony Wrote: ...


Quote:Do you feel like you bounced off of masculinity before you could even conceive of it?

I believe that is partially correct. As my conception of it came into focus, I felt as if I lacked some core virility required to be masculine. I did not have a sufficient interest in athletics, competition, and aggression. Given my predisposition for more solitary/academic/autistic activities, I was utterly unable to interface with the grug-style masculinity you described above. I think it goes further though. It is extremely difficult to maintain or develop any masculine self-regard when one is preoccupied with fantasies of being a female. During the early years of puberty, I began to consider the strong association between masculinity and desirability to women. Particularly, female attraction is a measurable metric by which one could gauge one's status in relation to other boys. I believed these fantasies rendered me permanently undesirable to women - for what women would ever desire a male who wishes to be female. Thus, I felt like I was unable to ever ascend toward masculinity. The reasoning is specious, but you can begin to see the kind of mental connections that shaped my initial perceptions of gender: High Status Man ~ Masculine Man ~ Desirable to Women

Quote:Aside from Metal Gear do you feel like you took much from any of these?

Absolutely. I was philosophically oriented at an early age, but I lacked the resources to cultivate that until I turned 13 or so. Before then, and it is embarrassing to speak of it, I was very stimulated by the politics/philosophy present in video games. There was at least a depth there that was not present in any of the garbage that could be found on cable TV. FF7 sent me thinking about environmentalism and the consequence of capitalism on the planet. Xenogears pushed me to question to the existence of God.

Quote:And could you elaborate on what you took from Metal Gear?

A fascination with memetics and genetics that will persist for the rest of my life. My first serious encounter was with genetic determinism, nihilism, and fatalism. The final speech by psychomantis haunted me for years after hearing it:

Quote:And each mind that I peered
into was stuffed with the same single
object of obsession. That selfish
and atavistic desire to pass on
one's seed... it was enough to
make me sick. Every living thing
on this planet exists to mindlessly
pass on their DNA. We're
designed that way. And that's
why there is war. But you... you
are different... You're the
same as us. We have no past, no
future. We live in the moment.
That's our only purpose. Humans
weren't designed to bring eachother
happiness. From the moment
we're thrown into this world,
we're fated to bring each other
nothing but pain and misery. The
first person who's mind I dove
into was my father's. I saw nothing
but disgust and hatred for me
in his heart. My mother died in
childbirth... and he despised me
for it... I thought my
father was going to kill me.

To me, as a child, I felt incredible truth in this. It was hard not to look at my peers and adults and see all of life as reducible to an automatic and thoughtless pursuit of fucking. The desire to fuck or be fucked was encoded in every aspect of our culture. Reiterated in every social structure I saw around me. It was irrational and seemed to annihilate any potential transcendental meaning of existence… And all roads eventually circled back to ‘Fuck’. When I became intensely interested in mathematics and physics, it was because it seemed to posses exactly the transcendent values I felt were absent elsewhere in life. I couldn’t, and still cannot, believe in God in any way other than in a vague and pantheistic sense, but I could believe in the beauty of mathematics. Past this, MGS1 oriented my entire philosophical development, and the pursuit of the concepts Kojima laid out led me to Nietzsche, and thereafter left me in a nihilistic purgatory for nearly a decade. It is interesting to remark that my engagements with both Kojima and Nietzsche left me with conclusions opposite to those intended. That said, my engagement with N’s thought was also what later led me out of a nihilistic frame. Amor Fati and all that.

Quote:Same questions for these. It sounds like your interpersonal relations are what opened your mind and made you tolerant of a place like this, but do you feel like the media was any kind of priming or shaping influence?

Not so much. I was always curious about spaces whose beliefs were regarded as extreme, from Stormfront to Monkey Smashes Heaven. As a teenager on SomethingAwful, I spent a substantial amount of time researching extreme beliefs and trying to make sense of the psychologies/personalities that were attracted to them. I think I wracked up a few hundred or so posts on Stormfront’s Opposing Views subforum back in 2007. I disagreed with nearly everything, but certain things seeped back into me. That said, I did not treat the right sympathetically until around 2014 or so, when I became largely disillusioned with the majority of other trannies and our culture. I expected an underworld of people similar to myself and found instead moralfaggotry. Extensive thought policing. Around then, I met the guy I mentioned - and experienced a rapid, painful, and traumatic political awakening. Gamergate happened, and though I was already a tranny, I did feel a crisis of allegiance. The people being suppressed were still, in a very real sense, my people. We shared, in large part, similar childhoods and tastes. And though I became a tranny, part of my heart went with them. Perhaps I’m overdramatizing that - the real crisis of conscience came with the election of Trump. Discussing that would take me too far afield.

Quote:If you were able to find appealing alternative masculine visions of the world to your retarded dago prole-man of the house, how did this still happen? Is your reading a kind of "Oh that's nice, but not for me"? Do you feel like masculine ideals you might value are beyond you, not worth it, simply not as appealing as chasing feminine ones?

I absolutely appreciate the beauty in the masculine ideal, and I hold men who pursue truth and greatness in the highest reverence. I don’t regard the ideal as beyond me, as much as I try to approach aspects of it from within the context I have chosen to live. I have an absolute lack of attraction towards women, and thus any masculinity I could ever aspire to would remain detached from them. Yet I am also an extreme romantic, and part of what remains enchanting to me about being a tranny - even more than a decade into it - is the nature of love between trannies. The idea of altering and modifying our bodies for each other, the beauty and the perversion of that. Past that, the implicit and natural bond that can be fostered under such conditions, with the right person. My wife is much like me, and she is both my lover, my best friend, and my confidante. I think few men in history have ever had the privilege of experiencing romantic love with someone whom they can share everything with, and who is able to lose themselves to discussions of philosophy beneath the stars. There is an artistic and aesthetic component to this experience, and the pursuit of it comes from a spirit of authenticity rather than conformity. As such, I think there is something masculine in it an assertion of one's will, though most would not see it as such. As for other aspects of masculinity, I still have a sense of ambition and there are many projects I wish to complete before I meet my end, though I’m still at a point in my life where I am focused on acquiring the necessary resources and financial security to pursue them

.... Some edits --

Quote:So you're saying it doesn't *hurt* until it becomes conceivably real and becomes a deprivation? At least in your case? Do you feel like this is more or less the common experience? Any thoughts on "dysphoria" in general?

I don't want to posit this as universal, but I believe it to be largely true. Absent the potentiality of realizing it, there would have remained a sense of wistfulness, and a sense of brokenness. I certainly would not have been normal and may have ended up just a weird form of gay. I think the 'Virtual Dysphoria Machine' concept above comes the closest to distilling the whole experience: Dysphoria actively generates, reproduces, and multiplies itself. And the most intense physical dysphoria is experienced during the early stages of transition, at least for most trannies. It is also memetic. Insecurities about particular aspects of the body are a social contagion, and genital dysphoria is the most perfect example. People can be meme'd into it, and people can be meme'd out of it. Though, the latter is much more challenging than the former. The trick is that it almost always sits upon a foundational belief "I am unlovable as I am" — trannies who find stable and secure relationships will often find that their physical dysphoria dissipates, at least if they feel that their lover is genuinely attracted to them. 

Quote:Wanted to ask Zed if he/she(/xir?) got routinely bullied growing up. I share a similar story with shitty-absent father and lack of masculine role models, but I'm sure that also getting bullied because kids somehow picked on my autism since I was 5 didn't help to ingratiate myself into the masculine ideal.

She, but I don't particularly care here. I was bullied quite a bit, and was often called a faggot. This bothered me immensely. I felt a deep paranoid fear that people could see through me --- could they see the fantasies I harbored in my soul? I wondered if everyone around me knew the nature of what I was. As with many bullied kids, I entertained many violent and sophisticated mass murder fantasies that I played out routinely in my head.
#82
(10-12-2022, 01:56 AM)Zed Wrote: For most of my early childhood, my mother (who had severe BPD and Borderline Personality Disorder) dated a low-IQ Italian man whose idea of entertainment was getting drunk and watching football/NASCAR - or getting high with his guido bros. And the man who I considered my father was miserable and self-hating, with terminal case of oneitis. Either way, I felt a revulsion towards this peasant masculinity as early as eight years old, and I could not see myself in any of them, or in my peers. I could not understand men as anything but brutish.

I have perceived the low-IQ manliness at a young age but I never fantasized about being a girl, probably not just because there wasn't anyone to groom me into it but also because there was a "cool" factor in the cartoons I watched as a kid. I remember telling my mother around the age of 9 that I liked spikes (sharp and calculated) more than hammers (blunt and moronic), which I both associated with men. I had little interest in some of the things the other boys talked about at the time (sports and cars) and hated PE class because I wasn't so competitive, the other boys would swear and insult each other and I didn't care to do it back at them.

The tranny is a splinter of the lumberjack in the sense that you can only be a man if you grow a beard, drink beer and cut wood and if you don't, you're a woman (sissy). The lumberjack/dollar shave manliness is prescriptive and performative and only focuses on secondary male characteristics and ignores something vital: if a man does it, it's manly. If the sensitive young boy fails to realize that he too has a say in what being a man is, he's to become a tranny and even then he is still a "man", as fantasizing about being a woman is perhaps the most manly act. Women have no reason to fantasize about something they already are.
#83
(10-12-2022, 09:52 PM)Guest Wrote: I have perceived the low-IQ manliness at a young age but I never fantasized about being a girl [...]

This has some solid observations. If whole of 'gender theory' can be said to contains a single truth, it is simply that gender is largely performative. It is also something everyone is acutely aware, at least eventually, even if some are more naturally inclined towards the automatic socially expected performance. People automatically gauge the behavior of higher status individuals, and attempt to graft those aspects onto themselves. The tranny (or the incel) recognizes the performative aspect of it early in life due to their failure to properly perform it in accordance with social expectations; however, the more acutely you recognize and autistically distill the performative nature of it, the more you feel the weight of artifice. 

As example, if a prodomal tranny considers the possibility of repression and attempts to envision a future as man, understood in terms of their own psychological caricature of masculinity - they acutely feel that the process would essentially be a lifelong performance. Alone, that is not bad. The real issue that the performance would be a fundamentally neurotic one, characterized a intense fear of being discovered. A life of secrecy. We've inherited a set of cultural stories about cross dressers who went on to get married and have kids -  only to be caught by their wives one-day to be divorced and lose everything. Now, femininity is still an active performance for a tranny, but it is also one without this covert neuroticism. Instead, it involves a far more overt and observable neuroticism. Although lumberjack masculinity may have been possible, it contradicts one of the more fundamental desires in human intimacy: the desire to be understood. This one of the bits of mental calculus that some people (including myself) used to justify our decision.
#84
(10-13-2022, 03:21 PM)Zed Wrote:
(10-12-2022, 09:52 PM)Guest Wrote: I have perceived the low-IQ manliness at a young age but I never fantasized about being a girl [...]

This has some solid observations. If whole of 'gender theory' can be said to contains a single truth, it is simply that gender is largely performative. It is also something everyone is acutely aware, at least eventually, even if some are more naturally inclined towards the automatic socially expected performance. People automatically gauge the behavior of higher status individuals, and attempt to graft those aspects onto themselves. The tranny (or the incel) recognizes the performative aspect of it early in life due to their failure to properly perform it in accordance with social expectations; however, the more acutely you recognize and autistically distill the performative nature of it, the more you feel the weight of artifice. 

As example, if a prodomal tranny considers the possibility of repression and attempts to envision a future as man, understood in terms of their own psychological caricature of masculinity - they acutely feel that the process would essentially be a lifelong performance. Alone, that is not bad. The real issue that the performance would be a fundamentally neurotic one, characterized a intense fear of being discovered. A life of secrecy. We've inherited a set of cultural stories about cross dressers who went on to get married and have kids -  only to be caught by their wives one-day to be divorced and lose everything. Now, femininity is still an active performance for a tranny, but it is also one without this covert neuroticism. Instead, it involves a far more overt and observable neuroticism. Although lumberjack masculinity may have been possible, it contradicts one of the more fundamental desires in human intimacy: the desire to be understood. This one of the bits of mental calculus that some people (including myself) used to justify our decision.

No, that isn't something everyone is acutely aware of because it isn't true. It only seems that way to you because you mentally broke yourself by trying to manifest your most deranged fantasies into real life. To people who aren't psychosexually deformed, male and female social roles are just a basic constraint of existence and not something that has to be obsessed over and willfully materialized one way or the other. I've never struggled with any idea of "becoming" a man except in the sense of maturing from a boy to an adult. Your second paragraph is fascinating in the same vein of gut-wrenching curiosity as looking at shock videos or serial killer interviews, but it is 100% alien and not something common that you "recognized early".

Given that I am a man, acting in certain ways will advance my position toward achieving my goals; other behaviors will tend to harm my position, or else are categorically unavailable to me to begin with. I've never felt the slightest urge to sperg out or act like a freak over this, in fact it's so intuitive that it's only by encountering weirdos like you that I would even bother to put it into words. I observe that I certain problems or situations happen to me because I'm a man, and yet the idea that I could solve or otherwise separate myself from these circumstances by PRETENDING OTHERWISE is not the product of a sound mind.

Any influence I take from other men about "how to be a man" so to speak is simple learning, no different than watching an experienced workman use a tool to achieve a particular outcome in a given situation. The neurotic obsession (you get a few points for honesty on that observation) that this constitutes some kind of artificial "performance" exists entirely within your twisted mind and likewise within your fellow deviants. Imagine making a similar statement about any other role:

"Being a carpenter is largely performative."
"Being the president is largely performative."
"Being 6'2" is largely performative."

This is all beyond facile, it's just retarded gibberish. You take certain actions that are likelier to advance a goal; you develop certain attitudes that make it easier to act; you present a context-appropriate aspect of oneself to interface with society; you cultivate certain habits in response to immutable constraints on your life. In between the details you make decisions based on preference, but not with unlimited scope taking precedence before physical reality.

Notice also how the examples above conflate practical and social roles with physical traits in the same format, because that's exactly what trannies do. The carpenter is a functional skill, the president is an executive decisionmaker with ceremonial duties, and being a certain height is just a physical fact. Manhood is all three of these things, and yet in no case is the "performance" an arbitrarily interchangeable fiction. Likewise, the president may be the most "performative" of the three, but by no means can he up and decide to "come out" to the American people that he was actually the pope all along!

There is nothing substantive, real, or true about this idea. Man and woman are simply a pre-existing fact of reality, your only option otherwise is to be wrong and insane. Furthermore, your insistence that being a demented tranny gives you special insight into some shared phenomenon inhabited by everyone else, is no less offensive to the well-formed mind than a bum shouting aimlessly at an empty sidewalk. You are delusional for pretending to be a woman, and even though you show much more candor than the average tranny, you are still doubly delusional for thinking that your mental illness represents a legitimate intellectual perspective, or that it somehow reflects anything about the human condition that isn't utterly horrible and should be immediately shunned. You aren't the avant-garde of a more fluid future, you're a case study of information pollution.
#85
(10-13-2022, 06:08 PM)Guest Wrote: No, that isn't something everyone is acutely aware of because it isn't true... given that I am a man, acting in certain ways will advance my position toward achieving my goals; other behaviors will tend to harm my position, or else are categorically unavailable to me to begin with...

Had a feeling that would be misread. Let me spell out exactly what I mean, and make it crystal clear for you.

Gender exists on top of sex - it is the higher level process whose form jointly-shaped by the underlying biological components and the ambient culture. However, it absolutely is a fucking performance: Women dress a certain way, consciously varying their fashions according to seasonal expectations. Men find successful bodybuilders and imitate/adapt their sets. Pick-up artists used to debate the utility of negging, autisticly analyzing every aspect of male-female sociosexual interaction. Are these means to achieve certain ends? Sure. Elevated social status is an end. As is sex. Sex is the biggest end. And many people do many things for sex. I bolded the verb 'acting' in the above quote. And no, it is not intended to be a cheap gotcha. Do you understand why I did that? 

And these are just conscious examples, it goes much deeper - we subconsciously correlate behaviors/mannerisms and engage in a process of physical mimesis. Men hold cigarettes differently from women. Have you noticed that? That is a performance, but it is not one that you need to be self-aware of. Certainly she isn't aware of it - and you probably aren't either. She might not have ever thought about it for a second of her life - simply subconsciously picked up from a friend. So many things are like that. However, if she held her cigarette as a guy does, you would be far likely to notice. When I speak of performance, I am not implying that all people are consciously hyper self-aware of every action they take, but rather that they have been shaped either by culture, or intentionally by themselves, or act and behave in a certain way in accordance with social gender norms. 

At certain levels extreme autism, both men and women fail utterly in their performance and you can witness something close to the absolute ungendered ideal: Overweight, messy hair, sweatshirt and sweat pants, awkward cadence, and extreme physical clumsiness. That is the absolute zero of gender, and the place from which all intensities can and should be measured. Masculinity and femininity are not opposites, they are divergent directions branching off from one and the same asexual Eunuch Zero.

Now, it might happen that all of these things come naturally to you. They don't for everyone. A large number of people (and not just trannies) have to make an effort to actively learn and train themselves to properly conform. If you're a boy and you sit with your legs the wrong way, you get called a faggot. If you are a girl and you speak too loudly and aggressively, you get told the behavior is ugly and unfeminine. We cannot say that there is a single socially optimal performance of femininity/masculinity, but there certainly is a class of performances which are widely (or were widely, before our current year) socially approved of. This process of conforming to them, for reasons I've outlined above, is particularly impaired in trannies.

Quote:Man and woman are simply a pre-existing fact of reality, your only option otherwise is to be wrong and insane.

Since when did I speak of men and women? I have nearly exclusively spoken of masculinity and femininity in nearly every post I've made... which is to say - the performative gender aspect. Literally almost no one, right or left, either in the present or past, would ever assert that all men are masculine - or all women feminine. In fact, we often grant that men can be unmasculine (or even feminine) as an insult. Men have been insulting other men by comparing them to women before the dawn of time. And this can only makes sense if you grant some reality to the concept/construction of gender. At which point you must ask: Is it innate? Is it a socially constructed performance? I lean towards performance, but shaped by certain (nearly impossible to isolate) innate factors. 

Read my posts for what they are, and cease attributing the words of your preconceived strawtroon onto me. I am not saying the same thing as them.
#86
Are you and your "wife" castrated? Is there a lot of discord between mutilated and intact trannies in the discords? Are these two qualitatively different personality types or the same insanity distanced by order of magnitude?
#87
(10-13-2022, 07:29 PM)BillyONare Wrote: Are you and your "wife" castrated? 

God no. She intensely wanted SRS when I met her, and had high levels of dysphoria about it. I used what influence I had to cultivate in her in such a way that she could move past that. Nowadays, she enjoys having a penis, but it took more than two years of effort on my part to get her to that place.

Quote: Is there a lot of discord between mutilated and intact trannies in the discords?

In general, none. There was for older generations, but that has faded away. For me personally? I'm very outspokenly anti-SRS and I go out of my way to meme against it. That does piss people off, but in a way that I find amusing. Eg, I post botched surgery results to troll. I've seen peoples lived ruined by it, including close friends, and I believe it should be discouraged harshly. Check what I wrote on the previous page w/r/t genital dysphoria being a meme.

Quote:Are these two qualitatively different personality types or the same insanity distanced by order of magnitude?

Essentially the same. Different people have different physical insecurities, and attribute/project their unhappiness onto different parts of their body. Some of the most beautiful, feminine, and passing trannies love having a dick - and some of the ugliest and most masculine desperately want a vagina. Of course, it can go the other way too... there are no hard and fixed rules. Self-aware trannies though, I think, often realize they have higher SMV as an uncastrated tranny than they would with a neovagina. We are, if nothing else, a rather common intense fetish for men. Without a cock, we just become a less desirable infertile simulacra.

(10-13-2022, 07:40 PM)chungus Wrote: Is transgenderism inherently a political identity? 

Inherently? No. Historically, it was just a medical condition. It remains as such in Iran and elsewhere. But in practice... It is and I wish it wasn't - but I think it has been manufactured as such. The construction was necessitated by a reorientation of the professional activist class post-Obergefell, who found on Tumblr the potential for a new client class to justify their grants/donations.

Quote:Do you think there's a difference between transgender lesbians and "straight" trannies?

At any given point, the majority of 'straight' trannies are temporarily-repressed tranny lesbians. This is a hard and fast rule. Many often get fucked by men for a few years to feel affirmed in their femininity. Eventually though, they find themselves falling madly in love with another tranny. Almost every tranny I knew who once self ID'd as straight is now in a long term relationship with another tranny. You can see this pattern play out in real-time with each new generation of /tttt/ tripfags.

For the minority of trannies that are genuinely straight, they do (or rather did) form a different subclass and subculture. Blanchard correctly noted in the 90s that they tend to be more naturally feminine from an early age, often have lower IQ, and do pass as women more effectively. Or at least, they did. One of the modern failings of Blanchard's AGP/HSTS model is that an increasingly large proportion of zoomer AGP trannies are able to effectively pass as female in a way that the AGP-class he studied in the 90s could not. In part this is due to starting HRT early, and it is also in part due to the fact that they are simply less socialized as men. Likely they retain sufficient neuroplasticity to modify their behaviors in line with feminine expectations. The lines are much blurrier now and HSTS/AGP trannies no longer form separate cultural ecosystems.
#88
(10-13-2022, 07:23 PM)Zed Wrote: Gender exists on top of sex - it is the higher level process whose form jointly-shaped by the underlying biological components and the ambient culture. 

Gender and sex are synonyms. There is no such thing as gender distinct from sex. In every possible case, this definition of "gender" is an anti-concept. If your "gender" defined as such aligns with neither sex, then it's completely irrelevant. If it aligns with your own sex, then the distinction is entirely superfluous. If it aligns with the opposite sex, then it's incoherent: what makes the "female gender" female if it's fully independent of female biology? What is the "woman" that you "are" if not the woman YWNB?

Transgenderism is a lie that can only exist in reference to the biological reality which it denies. It's a metaphysical leech that depends on the uninitiated population (including many of its own acolytes) being too stupid to follow it to its conclusions. If we all took its precepts at face value, it would annihilate itself. Just like trannies do when faced with the crushing reality of what they have committed their souls to.

The rest of your comment in summary is just reiterating what I correctly ascertained and exposed already, that being a transparent conflation of performance in the sense of execution (athlete, musician) with performance as a ritual of boundless narrative creation (actor, pornographer). You are a pseud defending your fetish with apology invented by child molesters--it's a 110IQ reading comprehension shell game that only works on dimwits and cowards. I've misrepresented nothing, your troon gibbering simply fails instantly upon contact with reason.
#89
Guest, you say that
Quote:To people who aren't psychosexually deformed, male and female social roles are just a basic constraint of existence and not something that has to be obsessed over and willfully materialized one way or the other.
If this were actually still true I feel like it'd be impossible for this issue to reach the point it's at. If male and female social roles are a 'constraint', why aren't people constrained?

Quote:Given that I am a man, acting in certain ways will advance my position toward achieving my goals; other behaviors will tend to harm my position
What does being a man have to do with this?

Quote:I observe that I certain problems or situations happen to me because I'm a man, and yet the idea that I could solve or otherwise separate myself from these circumstances by PRETENDING OTHERWISE is not the product of a sound mind.
I feel like you've misread the issue. I don't believe that the issue is a desire to escape from male circumstances and inhabit female ones. As I've suggested above, sex-determined social constraints don't exist anymore. 

Quote:"Being a carpenter is largely performative."
"Being the president is largely performative."
"Being 6'2" is largely performative."
These all sound reasonable. Even tall guys learn the 'tall guy' jokes, appropriate responses, etc.

If you consider Zed a man I don't understand what there is to be angry about.
Quote:You take certain actions that are likelier to advance a goal; you develop certain attitudes that make it easier to act; you present a context-appropriate aspect of oneself to interface with society; you cultivate certain habits in response to immutable constraints on your life.
What are some things you believe to be "immutable constraints on your life" that stem from your sex in the 21st century? I personally don't really believe that there are any and I believe that this has been observable for some time. Ivan Illich wrote his book 'Gender' suggesting this was already pretty much complete in America in 1982. I feel like you even say things that lead to this conclusion in this post.

Quote:The carpenter is a functional skill, the president is an executive decisionmaker with ceremonial duties, and being a certain height is just a physical fact. Manhood is all three of these things
This is approaching how Illich defined our old true gender roles. Ceremonial roles and duties, skills, obligations. Social life is organised around you doing particular things and not doing other things. This is no longer true. Man no longer has a social essence.
Quote:Man and woman are simply a pre-existing fact of reality

And do you believe that that fact extends beyond the presence or absence of a bulge in the blue jeans, as illich put it?

Zed said something interesting I want to run into here to make a point.

Quote:At certain levels extreme autism, both men and women fail utterly in their performance and you can witness something close to the absolute ungendered ideal: Overweight, messy hair, sweatshirt and sweat pants, awkward cadence, and extreme physical clumsiness.

Have you ever noticed an autist who didn't even have the accent of where they're from? I think that's a good example of how all social essence is learned and performed, and can be lost. The point Ivan Illich wanted to make in 'Gender' is that sexually determined social roles used to be like accents in our speech. So effortless and fixed that it couldn't even occur to anybody things could be another way. Even if everybody couldn't perfectly align, you were better or worse by this standard.

This is the point I've been trying to make all this post and I think it's the most productive thing that this thread could explore.

And guest your last post is frankly such stupid grug-seethe that there's no substantial reply to be made to it. I'm of half a mind to make a joke about you repressing something.
#90
(10-13-2022, 11:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Gender and sex are synonyms. There is no such thing as gender distinct from sex. In every possible case, this definition of "gender" is an anti-concept. If your "gender" defined as such aligns with neither sex, then it's completely irrelevant. If it aligns with your own sex, then the distinction is entirely superfluous. If it aligns with the opposite sex, then it's incoherent: what makes the "female gender" female if it's fully independent of female biology? What is the "woman" that you "are" if not the woman YWNB?

Are there women who act masculine? Men who act feminine? Yes. Have there always been such? Yes. Have concepts of masculinity/femininity always existed apart from the basic sexual classification of male/female? Certainly for the past four thousand years. Trannies existed long before the concept the concept of gender came into use - but any serious attempt study such would have quickly necessitated the invention of such a concept. Imagine: Plato time-travels to 2022, astonishingly discovers 'weird men dress and act like women', and is thus forced to posit the existence of idealized 'gendered forms' - before proceeding to have a mental breakdown over the fact that all the cute nubile youths are cutting off their cocks.

Quote:...with apology invented by child molesters.

I love this kind of lower-RW midwit reasoning. It is the mode of reasoning that systematically dismisses entire schools of thought because they are associated with a political currents you find disdainful. Reminds me of the writers at Claremont who churn out the poorly written bimonthly article on Foucault Was Stupid [And fucked children!], despite him having two or more standard deviations on their midwit asses. Yes, you can hate Foucault, Derrida, and Deleuze - and you could make a solid rigorous case against them, or against any of the queer theorists who followed in their path. There are many ideas there that can be justifiably torn apart. However the innovation of the word gender was one of better ones, as it gave a way to speak about behavioral coding in a way that was fundamentally neutral and temporally localized.

Yet you... You are the uniquely retarded sack of shit who probably busted a few blood vessels in rage when Michelle Obama suggested school diets should be healthier, and yet nodded in Soyjak-glee when the great @SeedOilDisrespecter said the same.
#91
Hello Zed. Do you think there is an impetus for men to transition into women because in their heads, they think of it more as "switching to the winning team", believing that men have no value in the world today and that the only value that can be found is by becoming a woman?
#92
(10-14-2022, 02:42 AM)Guest Wrote: Hello Zed. Do you think there is an impetus for men to transition into women because in their heads, they think of it more as "switching to the winning team", believing that men have no value in the world today and that the only value that can be found is by becoming a woman?

It happens, but it is not super common. Certain incel communities promote a form of it called trannymaxxing, and some have actually done it. The most entertaining manifestation of it is a certain cult (really just one guy) known as Vintologi. It blends Social Darwinism, Pragmatic Amoralism, Eugenics, and Trannymaxing. 

It makes for a fairly entertaining read.

The Vintologi Manifesto: 

https://archive.org/details/vintologi26/mode/2up

The Vintologi Guide To Trannymaxxing:

https://archive.org/details/transmaxxing2/mode/2up

The author of Vintologi manifesto is not himself a tranny... he just really, really, seems to enjoy the idea of turning incels into trannies. His guide on how-to self induce dysphoria is priceless, and I include it in full here:

Quote:stepO: watch Yamada-kun to 7-nin no Majo.
stepl: watch Tatsuwan birdy decode.
step2: watch Kashimashi girl meets girl.
step3: watch Kampfer.
step4: Watch some episodes of ranma 1/2 and cheeky angel.
step5: If you still don't feel like becoming a girl watch tsf monogatari and residence.
step6: As a last resort you can try sissy hypno porn https://www.reddit.eom/r/sissyhvpno/wiki/index
step7: Go to a gender clinic if you need an official diagnosis at some point.
step8: Bank your sperm.
step9: Start hormone replacement therapy https://vintologi.com/posts/1808
steplO: Removal of unwanted hair.
stepll: Facial feminization surgery.
step 12: Social transition https://n2t.net/ark:21206/10025
#93
>If you're a boy and you sit with your legs the wrong way, you get called a faggot. If you are a girl and you speak too loudly and aggressively, you get told the behavior is ugly and unfeminine.

I just fundamentally do not understand what relationship there can be between the realization of a given behavioral trait that a person has being closer to the average of the set of all women rather than to the average of the set of all men (emotional variability, "crossing your legs" (lol), speaking quietly, etc.) - and engaging in any of the behaviors which trannies engage in. Also, people speak about anti-"grug"-reaction, but the mental state of any such "grug" seems exactly as inaccessible as the mental state of a woman.
#94
(10-14-2022, 07:26 AM)Guest Wrote: I just fundamentally do not understand what relationship there can be between the realization of a given behavioral trait that a person has being closer to the average of the set of all women rather than to the average of the set of all men (emotional variability, "crossing your legs" (lol), speaking quietly, etc.) - and engaging in any of the behaviors which trannies engage in.

Admitting hopeless befuddlement only works as an own if everyone else present is as utterly confused as you.

Quote:Also, people speak about anti-"grug"-reaction, but the mental state of any such "grug" seems exactly as inaccessible as the mental state of a woman.
You do get it. At least better than you let on. It's not about averages. It's about cultures and standards. And yes this is what I find disagreeable about tranny culture. What should be an escape from standards is diverted into adherence to a new standard. At least in the worst cases. Our new friend Zed seems rather open minded, even if in possession of a few strangely fixed ideas on identity.
#95
Hello all. I have only read the first page of this thread - will read the rest later. Found it very engaging and interesting. I would like to contribute by dropping this website, which I believe very effectively displays the aesthetic of a specific, older sort of Internet Tranny.



Orion's Arm - Encyclopedia Galactica



This is a collective sci-fi worldbuilding project that I have stumbled upon a few times over the years while reading up on somewhat related stuff, and it has always fascinated me for a few reasons, most of which have to do more so with the very specific milieu it represents rather than any of the content within (which is par-for-the-course junk "content" as most worldbuilding, especially when done for its own sake, tends to be). The milieu in question would be high IQ Gen Xer sci-fi nerds, the kind of people who dominated the 'Net in the 2000s and, I believe, formed the early tranny vanguard. Think the archetype of the SA goon turned Twitter troon.



Of first note is the obviously dated "Old Internet" aesthetic: the website's design is simultaneously flat and stilted but also rather cluttered, in contrast to modern Web 2.0 minimalist junk.

[Image: orion.png]



All of the images are also the sort of ugly, primitive CG "art" that reminds me of cheap sci-fi stock footage or old fetish animations.
[Image: med_Posthuman.jpg]
[Image: med_cyborn.jpg]
[Image: UtilityFog.jpg]

But the key element of this site that points to its core tranny nature is the nature of its own sci-fi universe. Within this fictional world there is a huge emphasis on all of the classic tropes of transhumanism - genetic modification, cybernetics, mind uploading, etc. Society has become post-scarcity and humans are now completely free to modify themselves as they wish, becoming whatever weird robot or alien freaks that they desire. Note that such a conflictless world is fundamentally boring and gay, which is why this exists as a masturbatory worldbuilding project and not an actual story, because those need to be engaging (i.e. have conflict).

Observe how the site describes literal normal humans, which is clearly a lot of projection on the part of the authors (the wordage reeks of haughty liberal descriptions of "Trumpland."
Quote:Baseline Human: Those poor beings are still stuck at the level of Homo sapiens sapiens. Mostly associated with luddites, human supremacists, or other fringe minorities. There are however, a number of isolated habitats and polities, and even some reserves and parks, inhabited almost solely by baseline humans, which have shown themselves to be remarkably fecund in the appropriate environment. Nevertheless, their numbers have been slowly but steadily declining over the past several millennia, to the point that they are now considered by many observers to be an endangered species.

Wouldn't be a tranny sci-fi fantasy without virtual reality!
Quote:Virtuals encompass all sophont, sapient and sentient beings that predominantly exist entirely within virtual worlds. Many such virtual entities were originally embodied sophonts living in real, physical environments. Across the Terragen Sphere it is common for a physical sophont to spend time in virtual worlds, either by accessing a virtual avatar through their implants or by uploading their complete mindstate. However, for some, these are temporary visits, rather than the permanent state of those individuals. For others, they are born into a virtual state and remain in that state for an arbitrary length of time before becoming temporarily or permanently inactive.

Earlier commenters have made the connection between trannyism and this idea that "reality is all just words and information maaaan" which is for obvious reasons very popular with mid- to high-IQ nerds; I would also posit a connection between both aforementioned concepts and transhumanism (with its ideas of an AI with a high enough IQ being omnipotent because nanomachines and the absurd idea of "mind uploading") and worldbuilding/data hoarding. I would put money on there being a large overrepresentation of this sort of Gen X, old guard autistic tranny on the likes of TV Tropes and whatnot. I think that their archetypal incarnation can be found in the Wachowski Brothers. It all starts with "What if it's all just a simulation, lines of code, information that can be changed at will, maaaan?" and ends with, well...
[Image: wachowski.jpg]

I would say that a common, and rather obvious, baseline in all of these things is a hatred of Nature and the Body, which also underlies Gnosticism, as some previous commenters have alluded to. The steady throughline of "technology overcoming nature" present in this project has some hints of real Will to Power in it, but for the most part it's a sham imitation of real human advancement, more or less using advanced technology to create the safest and most comfortable and indulgent hedonistic adult daycare.
#96
Renamed the thread since the subject matter has diverted far from my initial OP.
#97
(10-14-2022, 01:18 PM)JohnnyRomero Wrote: Orion's Arm - Encyclopedia Galactica

That site is incredibly interesting. Thank you for that.

Quote:I would say that a common, and rather obvious, baseline in all of these things is a hatred of Nature and the Body, which also underlies Gnosticism, as some previous commenters have alluded to.

It isn't really a hatred of nature. As much as sexual reassignment surgery (for example) is a vulgar and debased thing, I remain glad that our society permits it to exists. Experimentation on the body in the form of extensive surgical modifications, eventually neural implants, is fascinating. I believe it will lead to many horrors, some as of yet unimaginable - and it shall bring a new kind of hell to this world; but is that a good enough reason to turn away from it? I would like to know how far we can go down this path, and how deeply we can assert out will on nature... and... I digress, but... are we genuinely asserting our will on nature?  Or is such experimentation simply the next path selection (read: nature) led us to? I hold to the latter and perceive zero tension here.

Surgery and implants compose the left-handed route  - certainly, the one most glamorized by modern transhumanists - yet eugenics, sterilization programs, and designer embryos form a concurrent right-handed path. And both stand in mutual opposition to those forces which seek to elevate the body to a level of divine sacredness that forbids any conscious tampering. The opposition is that which lavishes human life and the human form with ludicrous value on account of its mere existence, and it denies us a telos towards greatness in immanence.
#98
(10-14-2022, 01:18 PM)JohnnyRomero Wrote: I would put money on there being a large overrepresentation of this sort of Gen X, old guard autistic tranny on the likes of TV Tropes and whatnot.

Indeed and you have brought up a sub culture  I believe that is under discussed despite its  influence and sociological implications  in transgender circles. That being of course "Hard" Science Fiction which Orion's arm is a part of. To detail the genre would be too long and off topic for our purposes it can be simply defined as science fiction where the author anchors the world/plot in real physics and not technobabble made up by hack writers for Star Trek. The genre naturally is very masculine one would even say chudly especially the space age era classics of the genre with tales of all white male crew of scientists and engineers beating over aliens heads with the scientific revolution. I myself spent hours on the hard sci fi story and data mecca Atomic Rockets and read the blogs it recommended over and over. But as Johnny put perfectly there has always been especially now this undercurrent of  "using advanced technology to create the safest and most comfortable and indulgent hedonistic adult daycare."

That undercurrent has always been there and is now in full bloom spear headed by a generation of STEM sperglords who having succumbed to current trends have risen to become the new face of hard sci fi across the internet and wider science fiction and developing their own works with a small but growing pace. I will now put forth a example which I find fascinating not for any particular aesthetic mishap fineness  or uniqueness really but for the mindset it shows. https://beaconsinthedark.wordpress.com/2...ment-2063/

The TLDR of this story written as a fake news article along with some attached art pieces is the titular distant instrument is a massive self sustaining warehouse of severs that contain a digitized person. The article is like a NYT think piece with distant instrument acting as a plot thread as our fictional reporter gives out anecdotes on the issue of digitized persons and how often they are very anti social. One tale is this one which I have highlighted the part that made me howl with laughter and reveals the mind of the author who is a transgender(FtM) individual.

[Image: cfr64fi.png]

Pro social in the mind of the author of both of the real article and the fictional news paper is defined as helping gibs that for free against dastardly chud militas. I could write further on the meaning of such messages and topics by such  works in hard sci fi in relation to other tranny subgenres such as the low poly sad anime girl game  abominations such as "hopepunk" or how they tie into the transgender mind and social space but I would like to see others thoughts first.
[Image: 3RVIe13.gif]

“Power changes its appearance but not its reality.”― Bertrand De Jouvenel
#99
(10-14-2022, 12:52 AM)anthony Wrote: This is approaching how Illich defined our old true gender roles. Ceremonial roles and duties, skills, obligations. Social life is organised around you doing particular things and not doing other things. This is no longer true. Man no longer has a social essence.

[...]

Have you ever noticed an autist who didn't even have the accent of where they're from? I think that's a good example of how all social essence is learned and performed, and can be lost. The point Ivan Illich wanted to make in 'Gender' is that sexually determined social roles used to be like accents in our speech. So effortless and fixed that it couldn't even occur to anybody things could be another way. Even if everybody couldn't perfectly align, you were better or worse by this standard.

This is the point I've been trying to make all this post and I think it's the most productive thing that this thread could explore.


A few remarks:

One of my longer ranging predictions on the future of the internet is related to new social formations. I think there is a predisposition in many circles to hope for large-scale change in a desired direction on this, either in the form of a restoration of traditional social norms, or a further entrenchment of 'globohomo' values. I tend to reject both, and see the future as far more Landian and fragmentary in nature.

The influencer-centric internet remains, in my estimation, in it's infancy. I believe the telos here is one of new kinds of cult formations based around lifestyles. If earlier variations of the internet were structured in terms of disjoint subject-matter based communities, the current variation is oriented towards communities focused around a few central or pivotal personalities, who are increasingly attempting to find ways to monetize both their presence and that of their collective fan communities. The massive proliferation of paid podcasts and substacks has been but the first step in this direction, as the most game-changing aspects have yet to be fully explored - the potential to sell not just a content, but a complete and fully packaged lifestyle where the community/lifestyle itself becomes part of the product. In the near future - subscribing to your favorite influencer will not just bring you access to content, but private communities, micro in-group dating platforms, access to local meetups... etc. This will essentially endow certain influencers (or small networks of such) with an incredible and potent cult-like influence over their followings. 

You will live to see 'Caribbean Rhythms Complete: Subscribe now for full access to ten different private telegram, private professional networks, dating micro-services (BAP Grindr), access to local meet-ups, elite bodybuilder mentorship programs, and receive a 30% discount at your local Gold's Gym/Bathhouse.'

The marketing beauty of this is that once you buy-in and become entrenched within such a system, it is very hard to get out. If your friendship network is constructed within a private ecosystem, you may end up part of that self-same ecosystem for the rest of your life.

This might seem disjoint from the core subject of this thread, but it isn't. Lain trannies are nothing if not a not precursor here. A pure decentralized lifestyle formation bred within a still decentralized ecosystem, which is inherently and fundamentally tied to the structure of that online ecosystem. Twitter trads are another great example of what is coming.  As was Andrew Tate. So are the Nick Fuentes flavor of Groypers. All fringe, but all precursors. As the technology adapts and caters to these new kinds of formations, we will soon see a lot of people literally buying into desired lifestyle - each of which will construct its own gender/sexual/cultural norms, which will become part of the value of the product. It will read as LARPing on an unprecedented scale, at least at first, yet if you larp at something long enough....
(10-15-2022, 07:05 AM)Zed Wrote: I believe the telos here is one of new kinds of cult formations based around lifestyles. If earlier variations of the internet were structured in terms of disjoint subject-matter based communities, the current variation is oriented towards communities focused around a few central or pivotal personalities, who are increasingly attempting to find ways to monetize both their presence and that of their collective fan communities. The massive proliferation of paid podcasts and substacks has been but the first step in this direction, as the most game-changing aspects have yet to be fully explored - the potential to sell not just a content, but a complete and fully packaged lifestyle where the community/lifestyle itself becomes part of the product. In the near future - subscribing to your favorite influencer will not just bring you access to content, but private communities, micro in-group dating platforms, access to local meetups... etc. This will essentially endow certain influencers (or small networks of such) with an incredible and potent cult-like influence over their followings.

I think you're pretty much completely right about all of this. The social vacuum can't last and were it not for geographic separation this would be insanely further along than it already is.

Are you familiar with the comedian turned social outcast streamer and cult leader Owen Benjamin? He strikes me as a particularly advanced case. He basically started doing rightward jokes and comedy and reading about conspiracy theories, which started limiting his company and incentivising tight company with weird rightward internetpeople, then he got mindslaved during an interview with the charismatic E. Michael Jones. After this his character took a distinctly religious turn, his streams started getting more and more regular, and his regulars started getting more regular.

Last I heard he's at the point of collecting tithes, planning communities, and his followers are marrying each other.



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