Internet Tranny Sociology Thread
#61
Honestly are most troons even interested in sexual reproduction? How many troons will be even interested in family formation? I have to imagine a whole bunch of the sex addicts aren’t going to be super interested in the hard and necessary work of the family.
#62
(09-20-2022, 10:14 PM)MolaRam Wrote: Honestly are most troons even interested in sexual reproduction? How many troons will be even interested in family formation? I have to imagine a whole bunch of the sex addicts aren’t going to be super interested in the hard and necessary work of the family.

Varies wildly. Worth noting that HRT strongly inhibits the sex drive. Trannies talk more about sex than actually having it - probably part as a means to signal their in-group desirability. Most do the open-relationship poly-game for an extended period time, until they get emotionally burned enough. The more intelligent ones quickly re-discover a practical sexual morality and seek committed relationships. This inspires the kind of tranny trad larping you might see on twitter. The retards, by contrast, are still on Grindr until their 30s. Of those that do embrace commitment, a subset inevitably romanticize procreation, being a mother, etc. In general, AGP tranny sexual/dating norms are more akin to lesbians (high intensity passionate romances) - but the general normietran social hierarchies are more akin to that of gay men (competetive, catty, with status completely determined by passability and/or willingness to top).

As for kids myself - Personally, I had zero interest as a teenager, and most of my twenties. After I met my wife, I decided it would be lovely to see her genes continue their march across time. I have no interest in passing on my own. In the next few years, I intend to use one of the rent-a-womb services towards that end.
#63
(09-21-2022, 02:13 AM)chungus Wrote: How'd you find yourself here

In my own way, I also practice internet anthropology. I've been sporadically lurking frogtwitter since 2018. Recently, BAP drew attention to certain accounts, and I followed the breadcrumbs.
#64
(09-20-2022, 05:03 PM)Guest Wrote: Often, we come to fetishize trannies long before we transition ourselves. Or we engage in self-insertion fantasies about them. Either way, it instills in us a heightened erotic predisposition towards trannies. Post-transition, autistic shared interests serve to generate romantic commonalities. In this way, erotic desire is bonded to the desire for brotherhood - and though most trannies are not able to name the latter, it remains deeply felt. Deep AGP tranny subcultures - the ones that you don't see outside of private discords - are as autistic and systemizing as this place. They're also unabashedly T4T.
How do you suppose these fetishes might form? Is it intrinsic in the same way that certain genes and hormonal imbalances in the womb might cause homosexuality, or would you suppose it to be entirely environmental? I've seen a classical twin study that found no hereditary component but otherwise very little research into the causes of transgender identification or gender dysphoria. Also, do you subscribe to Blanchard's AGP/HSTS theory?
#65
(09-21-2022, 08:07 AM)Corvid Wrote: How do you suppose these fetishes might form? Is it intrinsic in the same way that certain genes and hormonal imbalances in the womb might cause homosexuality, or would you suppose it to be entirely environmental? I've seen a classical twin study that found no hereditary component but otherwise very little research into the causes of transgender identification or gender dysphoria. Also, do you subscribe to Blanchard's AGP/HSTS theory?

A few theories. I'll repost some notes I have:

Quote:Mommy issues. This one is a bit modern. The borderline and domineering mother. If the father was in the picture, he was routinely ritually emasculated by her. If not, she cycled through the carousel of boyfriends, tending towards low-tier Norwood IV simps. Taking his mother as his universal example, the boys begin to perceive women as irrational sophists and men as pitiful creatures who grovel for sex. These sterotypes embed themselves deep within his subconscious. Net effect: Masculinity starts to look very unappealing, as does hetrosexuality. At the same point, he perceives plainly the power that women can have over men. Part of him might desire that, even if the idea disgusts him at first.

Rating: 6/10. BPD/domineering mother is a trope repeated way too often. There is some research supporting the BPD correlation, and it is highly supported by personal anecdotal experience.
Quote:Genetics and Biology: Blanchard has presented evidence suggesting that autogynephlic transsexuals have a 1 - 1.5 standard deviation higher IQ.  IQ heritability is estimated at around .6, and there is a plethora of anecdotal evidence circulating the internet that many trannies had fathers who also had predispotions for cross-gender fantasies. We must also note that there exists a handful of studies suggest that many transsexuals have divergent grey matter distributions. Also, there is the well known autism/neurodivergence correlate… many patterns, but (as of now) no solid thread.

Rating: 2/10. Interesting, but requires substantially more evidence to take seriously.
Quote:[...] Like homosexuality, BAP implicitly suggests transsexuality emerges as a reaction to this, at least in the presence of a child with high sensitivity. As BAP largely restricts his discussion to homosexuality, I will attempt an extrapolation for trannies: If the ‘male conception’ of power is perceived as debased and undesirable to the sensitive child, then the ‘female conception’ is ascendant - the power of being desired. In our terms, this generates the entire predisposition for the VDM. Fantasies of being a woman become the escape from bland masculinity. As these become internalized, and eventually sexualized, femininity and submission are elevated to power fantasies. As much as this might seem a contradiction in terms, it is manifest in the intense jealousy that some prodromal trannies feel towards attractive women. We did, if nothing else, come of age in a world of dominant #GirlBosses.
Quote:It is at this juncture, facing these questions, that we can most intuitively re-simulate the experience. Before hormones, before surgery, before any of it — there is just an element of pure raw fantasy. Sometimes it can be sexual, tied to fantasies of having some dude fuck the living shit out of you. Sometimes it may tend towards fetishistic, oriented towards getting turned into an obedient sissy. It is the feeling of looking at the beautiful girl on the bus. Wondering what it would be like to be her. Intense longing. Overcome by unimaginable envy at the thought. And sometimes, just sometimes, it is just the wholesome fantasy of being a wife and mother. No one is the same, and all fantasies come packaged differently.

This is the fundamental point. Virtuality and fantasy are prior to EVERYTHING, and it would be a mistake to regard them as idle. To steal from Gene Wolf:  […] they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges […] it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all.

As we are not sorcerers, we need not be esoteric on these matters. This process is more mechanical than it first appears seems. And it is more cybernetic than mechanical. Recall the positive feedback loop: The cybernetic process that continually exaggerates and intensifies itself. I believe dysphoria works like that, emerging in repeated iterations of the fantastic process. An example may convey the idea:

>>A young boy who continually retreats into fantasies about being a woman. These fantasies bring him comfort, pleasure, and an escape from the reality of his life. At the same point these fantasies also intensify his desire for escape, inspiring a feeling of brokenness. The boy knows in his heart that he lacks the virility common to all socially successful men. He feels that no woman could ever a love a man who fantasies about being a woman. And faced with his brokenness, he returns to fantasy. More day-dreaming, more wistfulness, and more envy. It all accumulates, until any last sense of masculine self-identity (if there was ever much to begin with) is eroded to the core - vestiges remain. And then he waits, until the moment comes that a divine spark of inspiration comes and tells him to simply cast it all way. Which is to say, all it takes is one bad day.

Forgot to include something directly about AGP - 


Quote:[AGP/HSTS Model]: [...]

Rating: 5/10. Autogynephilia is real. No one sane denies this. The primary issue with the theory is not about the notion of AGP, but about the predictive nature of the entire model itself. Hypothesized from research done in the 1990s, and drew a fairly clear separation between two groups of people based on age and associated interests. Regretfully, its conclusions retained a strong cultural bias to them, reflecting trannies as they existed in that time period. In 2022, the model breaks down. In our time, AGP-class trannies routinely transition between 15-25. There is also a large spectrum of ‘passability’ within this group. Some read entirely as (conventional) women, from voice down to mannerisms/behavior. Others, frankly, do not. The cohorts of this class who transitioned younger remain the most likely to come off as female. At the same point, even the ones who do pass in this group are likely to have more stereotypically male interests - the meme of the tranny programmer/gamer is apparently independent of the age of transition/’passability’. Given this, the effectiveness of AGP as a predictive classifier has been diminished. At the same point, the general correlation between autogynephilic sexuality and tranny status remains; moreover, there is an increasing amount of evidence that HSTS-class trannies themselves exhibit some level of AGP.  Everything is a lot murkier in 2022 than it was in the 90s.
#66
(03-29-2022, 04:21 PM)Chud Wrote:
  • Lingering feelings of depression, listlessness, and miasma; altered states of consciousness brought on by brain-fogging drugs like SSRIs, Benadryl - never stimulants.

The "never stimulants" part is completely wrong though, as someone who has browsed 420chan extensively in the past (out of mainly curiosity), there were MANY trannies in the stimulants board and given the site had a board for trannies too it's safe to say there were manny trannies. That board contained many crazy stories of absolutely tweaked out escapades, and a majority of them sexual given its an easy way for those meth users to pass days by. Trannies extensively are into disassociatives like ketamine or DXM as well. You have to remember many trannies used to be just "weird" hyper online White teens, many of whom would have extensive experience with ADD or ADHD drugs like adderall, vyvanse, and modafinil. What you didn't find on the liquor, opioids, and benzos boards were trannies really. You found older drug users who had experience with dope for too long, alcoholics, and sometimes the odd Chinese businessman discussing his favorite tea and klonopin regimen for the day. Trannies are far more likely to buy synthetic stimulants for cheap on dark markets than they are expensive dope, and they're smart enough to know fentanyl will kill them. Some of the more normlfag ones might take SSRIs or benzos, but really you're looking at mostly adderalled up touhou or some rhythm game playing while taking drags out of some blueraspberry vape and listening to "sewerslvt" type fast music trannies.
#67
I don’t think trannies are autistic enough to poast on Internet forums that move at literally slower than molasses. Trannies seem to be high speed low drag operators (most of them don’t pass).
#68
(09-22-2022, 05:16 PM)MolaRam Wrote: I don’t think trannies are autistic enough to poast on Internet forums that move at literally slower than molasses. Trannies seem to be high speed low drag operators (most of them don’t pass).

Counter-point: SA's (D&D/Laissez Faire)/Lainchan (or any of the post-Systemspace chans)/Arcadehacking Forums/Emulation Forums. In our time, the majority of activity tends to be confined to Discord. In 2022, serious tranny political theorists are a rare breed, but they didn't use to be (and could be found easily in the mid naughts). Part of the issue is that no one has a clear idea or vision of what a tranny politik/philosophy should be (yet see 'T4T'), so it remains reactive to the right and runs off the steam of the older visions of queer theory. Preeminent voices like Contrapoints are terminal midwits.

It would be nice to have a comprehensive transhumanist vision, augmented by exclusionary/insular subculture - and there are some nascent strands of this amongst tech trannies in the venture capital world, but nothing (as far as I've seen) has manifested. Regretfully, those who share this orientation are very liable to fall into the trappings of rationalism/post-rationalism (see Doll Twitter or the scene around eigenrobot).
#69
(09-22-2022, 01:57 PM)chungus Wrote:
(04-01-2022, 03:02 AM)anthony Wrote: Where Amarna and the trannies fundamentally diverge is that we (or at least *I*) try to recognise and understand this severance from the natural rhythm of life. Really I think this *severed* state is what we're talking about when we discuss autism in the 21st century internet. I'm largely writing this post as a prototype for ideas I want to bring up in an eventual thread on that subject.

If troons and chuds are both from the same group but just diverged from each other, (like the hilarious trannycore meme of the fork in the road with a a nice looking castle and an evil looking castle) why is there no tranny equivalent to the Amarna Forum? Or even just Gigachad dialogues? Not everybody understood.

They aren't creatively sterile. There are troons making breakcore, video game mods, etc. And most Chuds don't have an amarna forum, extremely funny and clever new literary forms, or anything of the like. Most people are boring and retarded. I'd say if anything the connection is strong here, that intelligence does manifest, just in odd neurotic pursuits.
#70
(09-23-2022, 01:32 AM)chungus Wrote: What do you think caused the Chud/Troon divergence? Everybody was given a chance to understand during gamergate/2016 but very few actually stuck along. It's the same with the bruh5moment american types (quasi right wingers that use the phrase "goes hard") who were given equal exposure but clearly ended up not understanding. Besides, I wouldn't equate having a niche hobby as an indicator of anything in and of itself.

That thing BAP says feels relevant. "Tribe of Truth". I think that the higher chud is defined by a refusal to take any outs while learning more about the world. You're right to raise the ironyfags and such. I see a similar phenomena. It's harder to be a chud than a tranny or an ironyfag. Both are fundamentally different to us in that there are certain true things that will set them off. We might be able to get along on a lot of points, but somewhere they turn from the truth and take some kind of out.
#71
(09-23-2022, 01:32 AM)chungus Wrote: What do you think caused the Chud/Troon divergence? [...]

One should be careful with treating the two groups as simply forking at a given point in the road. In concrete terms, autogynephilia is more of a sexuality than a fetish - which is to say all consuming as opposed to simple a specific niche taste augmented on top of normal heterosexuality. It also acts a positive feedback loop:

[the more a boy fantasizes about being a female -> the more he feels broken as a male -> the more he leans into the escapism of a virtualized female identity]

On a concrete level, this acts as pre-existing separator between AGP autists and the greater breed of autists. Simply put, it isn't just a matter of choosing which direction to go when under the influence of pre-existing flows of desire.

The answer to your question is that a number of extremely online trannies did go MAGA in 2016, particularly given how easy it was to despise Hillary. Lots of the 4chan /lgbt/ variants did. By 2017-2018 with discussion of Bathroom Bills, and the incredible potency of the anti-trump movement, the social pressure became too great. At the same time, there was a rising hostility towards trannies within RW digital subcultures. If there was the potential for some ambiguity and movement, it disappeared around then and tribalism asserted itself. There was the side that meme'd about gassing you, and the side of absolute state-enforced affirmation. The wave function collapsed. The trannies that straddled the line back then either returned to left-wing fold, or abandoned politics entirely in favor of their autistic pursuits: choosing to turn away from the world entirely.  The somewhat apolitical nature of Lain trannies, or other types with ultra-niche disconnected interests in part stems from this. One side wants to treat them as a cattle to fill voting booths, another wants to remove them from public life - a terminal blackpill.
#72
The following is a major portion for a draft for an article that I intended to submit anonymously on a prominent substack. As that never ended up happening, I may as well leave it here for feedback. It explores an important angle almost never discussed.

[... earlier sections of the article discussed genealogical concerns - I will omit them ...]

1.2 Absolute Escapism

As stated, I believe all the above theories contain a not-so easily quantifiable degree of truth. Yet none speak to feel that characterizes transition: An inner experience. A liminal moment. An intense need to change. Nor do they speak to the prodromal state: Profound brokenness, desire for salvation, and wistfulness interceded only in fits of spastic jealousy. And long before any tranny undergoes transition, they retain fantasies of its prospect  - and these experiences constitute elaborate cognitive simulations. Some explore these fantasies by roleplaying, others within internal fantasy.

It is at this juncture, facing these questions, that we can most intuitively re-simulate the experience. Before hormones, before surgery, before any of it — there is that element of pure raw fantasy. Sometimes it can be sexual, tied to fantasies of having some dude fuck the living shit out of you. Sometimes it may tend towards fetishistic, oriented towards getting turned into an obedient sissy. It is the feeling of looking at the beautiful girl on the bus. Wondering what it would be like to be her. Intense longing. Overcome by unimaginable envy at the thought. And sometimes, just sometimes, it is just the wholesome fantasy of being a wife and mother. No one is the same, and all fantasies come packaged differently.

This is the fundamental point. Virtuality and fantasy are prior to EVERYTHING, and it would be a mistake to regard them as idle. To steal from Gene Wolf:  […] they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges […] it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all.

As we are not sorcerers, we need not be esoteric on these matters. This process is more mechanical than it first appears seems. And it is more cybernetic than mechanical. Recall the positive feedback loop: The cybernetic process that continually exaggerates and intensifies itself. I believe dysphoria works like that, emerging in repeated iterations of the fantastic process. An example may convey the idea:

Quote:A young boy who continually retreats into fantasies about being a woman. These fantasies bring comfort, pleasure, and an escape from the reality of his life. Yet these fantasies also intensify his desire for escape, inspiring a feeling of brokenness. The boy knows in his heart that he lacks a virility common in all socially successful men. He feels that no woman could ever a love a man who fantasies about being a woman. And faced with his brokenness, he returns to fantasy. More day-dreaming, more wistfulness, and more envy. It all accumulates, until any last sense of masculine self-identity (if there was ever much to begin with) is eroded to the core - few vestiges remain. And then he waits, until the moment comes that a divine spark of inspiration comes and tells him to simply cast it all way. Which is to say, all it takes is one bad day.

I draw from my own psychological history here, but there is nothing particularly special about me. In the thousands of posts and testimonies I’ve read over the last decade, these same basic threads are rewoven into a nigh endless multiplicity of narratives and reified into our social reality. 

The internet interfaces with virtualities in four distinct ways.

First, it provides a controlled simulation space for digital explorations of alterity.  You will find that many have extensive MMO backgrounds, first exploring female identification with avatars in those virtual worlds. By its nature as a kind of manifest concept space, the internet disembodies and derealizes us, allowing an abstract self to be transcribed into binary, shaped by according digital symbols possessing nigh infinite mutability. We are not our alters, and our alters are not us - but we are also not not them. There is a reason many of us are obsessed with Serial Experiments Lain - “She is just like me!”

Secondly, the presence of other trannies who have already undergone the process act as inspiration. Especially the pretty ones, who offer hope of a positive result.

Third, when he does begin transitioning, internet communities act as social support systems and provide external affirmation to his choice. See the uncountable number of “Am I trans?” threads on Reddit. There, the individual stands upon the cusp, just wanting to be told that “It is okay…”. To the extent that “””“grooming””” plays any kind of substantial role in tranny spaces, this is the real nature of it. It comes from people seeking affirmation, and others giving it. More exotic, manipulative, and darker forms do exist in the darker spaces of the internet. But they lay deep down weeb-ish and furry rabbit holes.

For the final way that transsexuality interfaces with the internet, we must concede that it is fundamentally a meme. There is nothing exceptional in this, though. It is a meme in the same way that religion, politics, and language itself are. Once one begins to have cross-gender fantasies, the social meme serves to provide context for feelings that defy simple explanations and logic. We attempt at all points to explain ourselves to ourselves in the terms and tools that are at hand. When we learn that transition is a possibility, it becomes paints the horizon with possibility. Cross-gender fantasies have always existed, but mere awareness of the potentiality of their realization changes everything.

1.3 Causes (local)

Let us roll the concepts of the last section into a shitty acronym. Call it the Virtual Dysphoria Machine - the VDM. An extremely tranny name for an extremely tranny concept. If we allow ourselves to grant that the VDM works in the way prescribed above, then we have gained (some) insight into the process - but not yet the nature of the cause. As a positive feedback loop, we believe the VDM eventually generates intense overwhelming dysphoria. A hatred of the body. But it does not exist in isolation. Instead, it constantly interfaces with the social and is subject to other external and internal forces

Quote:A. “I can be a socially successful male”

This is a belief, but I would prefer to think of it as a force. A belief influencing behavior. Call it a ‘belief-force’. you’re a handsome and good-looking guy who has had success within the dating market, you’re straight out less likely to transition early. And if you’re Caitlyn fucking Jenner, the concept might be so paralyzing to you that it might dampen the VDM-autorecursion for four fucking decades. High status/sexual market value has a strong repressing effect.

Quote:B. “I am not desirable as a male.”

Another belief-force and the negation of the preceding. If you think this way, you’re suddenly far more likely to consider the transition. Not only is your assigned sex undesirable to others, but you yourself are also hostile to it (you believe that it prevents you from having the best life you can). Perhaps you would be more desirable as a woman, and you would certainly be more sexually satisfied by it. So say you are a 17-year-old 5’6 anime autist with abysmal social skills. You masturbate to the DANKEST /d/ futanari five times a day. Women look at you like you have HIV. Or as a potential rapist. Probably both. You’re probably already begging your mom for estrogen daily. The thought consumes you. If you’re not obsessing, you’re LARPING and sad-posting on 4chan’s /tttt/.

Quote:C. “I would be an ugly woman.”

Non-passing trannies tend towards a certain look. Sometimes they inspire disgust, sometimes comedy. No one wants to be a disgusting joke. And except for 4chan adjacent spaces, trannies do not talk about this directly - the conversation is (culturally regarded as) a cruelty inflicted on those who simply waited too long, or had the wrong genetics for it. Yet all trannies are aware of it, in some deep way. And for most, the sum of all fears is thus: People would see me as a disgusting clown. If you believe this, you will probably repress. If someone still transitions well retaining this thought, then they have ascended to a low-grade sociopathy and simply ceased to care about the beliefs of others. Nietzschean? Degenerate? Depends on your tastes. Alternatively, they may come to recognize the belief-force as erroneous — either in truth or in delusion.

Quote:D. “I would probably pass.”

Again, the negation. If you can perceive yourself as passing, you are not only highly motivated to transition, but time has become a albatross. Every moment, every second postponed is a moment of further masculinization. This belief, more than any other, allows the VDM to spiral into overdrive in the case of teenagers. The fear of what they might lose is overwhelming. Opportunity cost is everything here.

Quote:E. “My parents/peer group/partner would disown/leave me.”

Weakly negating, but not as much as others. Unless you have extremely tight bonds, this serves to repress the VDM only insofar as it inspires resentment of those people who inhibit you. Once the resentment hits a certain threshold, it ceases to be negating. At such a point, it radically switches towards amplification: transition as an act of vengeance against those who held you back. There are a lot of trannies who take a certain naked pleasure in the thought of obtaining surgery, as a means of vengeance to inflict upon their parents. A most grotesque, if understandable, pleasure.

Quote:F. “I will go to hell.”

Strongly negating. But the mechanism works exactly the same as (E). Inhibition inspires resentment, which will in turn lead to one questioning their faith. Strongly atheist ex-Christian trannies are a dime a dozen.

Quote:G. “I would be accepted by all those I care about.”

…requires no discussion. Absolutely untethers the VDM. If you believe that you can realize your fantasy and not lose anyone you hold dear. The only inhibitions that will remain are concerns about aesthetics (C, D) or concerns about faith (E). If neither presents a challenge, you’ve probably already scheduled an appointment with an informed consent clinic or googling DIY HRT.

All of these belief forces exist outside the VDM. They speak to one’s social relationships and status within society. For the sake of clarity, they should be contrasted with the dominant belief-forces existing internal to the VDM. Let us distill one such example.

Quote:“I desire to be a woman, and no one would ever desire a man who fantasizes about being a woman.”

I believe that the VDM is driven by self-referential beliefs such as this.  An auto-reference generates an infinite recursion, manifesting in thought-loops, depression, and choice paralysis. By contrast, the belief-forces described above are not self-referential - they have tied directly to individuals' perceptions of their social reality. These things may or may not be interconnected in other ways, but I have not speculated past this point.


4. Causes (Global)

One of the driving features of VDM is the potentiality of transition itself. Call it the primordial infohazard. The moment we become aware that it is done, that someone somewhere in the world a man has made himself pass as a woman, is the moment that we feel most intensely the desire it.

In the early 2000s, pornography was the first infohazard. At the very least, it was from porn that a lot of people learned that transition was both possible (and that some people got good results from it). By the late naughts, Tumblr served to widely disseminate the concept into the collective unconscious. As of $CURRENT_YEAR, the online trans-community is sprawling - hundreds if not thousands of influencers and microcelebrities. Knowledge of specific surgeries, and hormone replacement theory, is no longer constrained to a small group of trannies and the associated medical professionals — but is fairly widely disseminated in the Wired.

Fundamentally, it was the internet that created the conditions for this, allowing geographically divergent communities to assemble into convergent digital ones, creating the proper pre-conditions for large-scale meme dissemination from small sources. Every child who is growing up now and for as long as the internet exists in its current form will know about us. About who & what we are. And if they have the appropriate preconditions and predisposition, they will begin to speculate on the possibility of transitioning themselves. From there, the psychological process described above will be enacted with brutal efficacy.

Yet the internet contributed in a second indirect way. The proliferation of dating apps has led to an absolute boom in the average woman’s self-esteem, and an absolute bust for men. Parts of incel culture, the ‘dating pareto principle’, ’female hypergamy’,  etc… have also become common-knowledge. Those with a feminist inclination may dispute them, but their truth is a red-herring. If males believe they are true, then they might as well be. As a consequence, the average male comes to feel substantially less sexually desirable than he once may have. This feeds back into a local cause: belief-force (B).

Finally, we should credit to Bronze Age Pervert for conceptually isolating yet another ‘global’ cause. This is the concept of ‘owned space’, which is challenging to express in a mere few sentences. Eschewing the concepts of spiritual connotations that naturally underlie it, it asserts that modern society stifles the ability of young boys to explore the world around them. This is very intuitive, but hard to convey concretely. Consider the following sentence:

“If you work really hard in school, and go to the right college, you can probably get a job at Amazon or Google someday.”

Only those with the right attunement can sense the sinister nature at work here. As children, we dream of many great and lofty things. We do not, however, dream of working a 9-5 in FAANG cubicle. Of spending our disposable income on mediocre video games and trashy streaming services. Or of being divorced, alone, and paying child support.  Yet we are aware that this is our probable future - if we are lucky enough to even make it. The world is smaller now than it once was, and our dreams are smaller still. To be born a few hundred years ago was to know a world that was still a mystery, to hold tight to the dream that one day you could claim part of that world for yourself. Few and fewer hold such dreams now. We are taught to be conservative with our desires. We should want a small apartment, eco-friendly electric car, and enough disposable income for weekly visits to the local Wine & Cheese bar. This is a good life. This is what the New York Times sells me, and it is what it sells all of us.

Like homosexuality, BAP implicitly suggests transsexuality emerges as a reaction to this, at least in the presence of a child with high sensitivity. As BAP largely restricts his discussion to homosexuality, I will attempt an extrapolation for trannies: If the ‘male conception’ of power is perceived as debased and undesirable to the sensitive child, then the ‘female conception’ is ascendant - the power of being desired, the power OnlyFans stars exert on legions of adoring simps. In our terms, this generates the entire predisposition for the VDM. Fantasies of being a woman become the escape from bland masculinity. As these become internalized, and eventually sexualized, femininity and submission are elevated to power fantasies. As much as this might seem a contradiction in terms, it is manifest in the intense jealousy that some prodromal trannies feel towards attractive women. We did, if nothing else, come of age in a world of dominant #GirlBosses.
#73
(10-12-2022, 12:08 AM)Zed Wrote: The following is a major portion for a draft for an article that was to be published anonymously on a prominent substack. As that never ended up happening, I may as well leave it here for feedback. It explores an important angle almost never discussed.

Thanks for sharing. I read the whole thing. Your devotion to the discourse is admirable, especially considering how personal this is to you.

Would you be averse to answering questions on this subject? I think i might have a few.
#74
(10-12-2022, 12:27 AM)anthony Wrote:
(10-12-2022, 12:08 AM)Zed Wrote: The following is a major portion for a draft for an article that was to be published anonymously on a prominent substack. As that never ended up happening, I may as well leave it here for feedback. It explores an important angle almost never discussed.

Thanks for sharing. I read the whole thing. Your devotion to the discourse is admirable, especially considering how personal this is to you.

Would you be averse to answering questions on this subject? I think i might have a few.

Not averse at all. Ask away.
#75
(10-12-2022, 12:30 AM)Zed Wrote: Not averse at all. Ask away.

All right. First thing on my mind. This part.

Quote:A young boy who continually retreats into fantasies about being a woman. These fantasies bring comfort, pleasure, and an escape from the reality of his life. Yet these fantasies also intensify his desire for escape, inspiring a feeling of brokenness. The boy knows in his heart that he lacks a virility common in all socially successful men.

Where do you believe that these fantasies come from? I understand that this is a broad question as the issue is accumulating so much history so quickly now and could be split into several eras.

How young, and what kind of fantasies? Are fantasies of being a woman from the start, or do they start life as a girl?

I understand that now the most likely source of this idea is some adult (or older youth) explicitly telling a child "unhappiness is often caused by being the wrong gender." but the issue I think ran in far more interesting directions before our current dark age.

Don't feel obliged to speak about personal experience here if you'd rather not.
#76
(10-12-2022, 12:41 AM)anthony Wrote:
(10-12-2022, 12:30 AM)Zed Wrote: Not averse at all. Ask away.

All right. First thing on my mind. This part.

Quote:A young boy who continually retreats into fantasies about being a woman. These fantasies bring comfort, pleasure, and an escape from the reality of his life. Yet these fantasies also intensify his desire for escape, inspiring a feeling of brokenness. The boy knows in his heart that he lacks a virility common in all socially successful men.

Where do you believe that these fantasies come from? I understand that this is a broad question as the issue is accumulating so much history so quickly now and could be split into several eras.

How young, and what kind of fantasies? Are fantasies of being a woman from the start, or do they start life as a girl?

I understand that now the most likely source of this idea is some adult (or older youth) explicitly telling a child "unhappiness is often caused by being the wrong gender." but the issue I think ran in far more interesting directions before our current dark age.

Don't feel obliged to speak about personal experience here if you'd rather not.

The first variations of these fantasies occurred when I was around six years old. They were presexual in the sense that I engaged in a kind of proto-masturbation behavior, pillow grinding, at their thought. At that time, I had minimal understanding of gender or sex, but I had vivid fantasies of my mother turning me into a girl. I had no dysphoria. Later, my presexual fantasies would shift to vampires and the thought of getting bitten and transformed into one (ages 7-9). In late elementary school, I returned to the fantasies of being a girl in a vague and difficult-to-quantify sense, but still with no dysphoria. I was preoccupied with video games and legos, and understood girls my age even more poorly than I understood other boys. By then, I was aware that puberty would soon happen and I had an expectation my sexuality would become normal. In reality, puberty brought an extreme intensification. Not only did I start to notice beautiful women daily, but I would also find myself constantly experiencing intense fantasies about being one. Before I had access to the internet, I masturbated to fashion magazines and make-up ads. But never at her as her -  only at the fantasy of being her.

I do not know why I was predisposed to this, and I wish I could give a satisfying answer to your first question. Though I felt no feel dysphoria when I was very young, I found adult men extremely unrelatable. For most of my early childhood, my mother (who had severe BPD and Borderline Personality Disorder) dated a low-IQ Italian man whose idea of entertainment was getting drunk and watching football/NASCAR - or getting high with his guido bros. And the man who I considered my father was miserable and self-hating, with terminal case of oneitis. Either way, I felt a revulsion towards this peasant masculinity as early as eight years old, and I could not see myself in any of them, or in my peers. I could not understand men as anything but brutish. Ariosophy (Sunny) once suggest that those who posses higher latent sensitivities are more naturally drawn to fantasize and explore a variety of alternative aesthetic experiences, and are apt to have more balanced sense of maleness/femaleness. tending towards harmony as opposed to polarity. This felt like a deep intuitive truth when I read it, but it is perhaps too flowery for this discussion.

Now, the nature of these fantasies shifted with time and internet exposure. Early in puberty, I could get off purely to the idea of just being a girl, with no sexual connations. By fourteen, I was playing with cross-dressing and stolen makeup, the latter being the primary fixation for some time. After exposure to erotica, things shifted again and I started to have fantasies involving being dominated and feminized by a man. These fantasies typically had an arc: I would be abducted, feminized, and forced into a position of sexual subservience. At that point, they began to stabilize. There was no preference strong between girl and woman, and if anything - the fantasies slightly favored a sexualized beautiful woman. Yet I would say that the desire to be a feminized male/tranny was even more potent than the desire of being fully female, as it imposed a higher level of submission. I did have other sexual fantasies, but they almost universally entailed a 'transformation' aspect - some of the weirdest included having parts of my brain surgically removed, being transmogrified into an evangelion-style LCL fluid, and being turned into a computer. Liminality and the process of becoming dominated my sexual landscape. A few years ago, I read Bataille's book on eroticism and it resonated with me deeply; as he spoke directly to a certain transcendental sacrificial element in sex, and a liminal moment within the ritual. In accordance with the previous post, the more I entertained these fantasies, the more I came to hate and resent the fact that I was born male. I also felt humiliated and broken by them, but this only drove me to seek further refuge in them. They were the escape.

Now, those are merely sexual fantasies. Whatever passive day-dreaming I engaged in during those years was also marked by a tendency to self-insert as female. Including power fantasies. Violent murder fantasies. Or fantastic roleplaying fantasies. Whatever they might have been, they always involved contextualizing myself as a woman. I would vividly imagine a dreamed-up future, and see myself as a woman within it. In these non-sexual fantasies, I tended to favor dominant women over submissive ones. I did not desire to be powerless. I had a naive expectation that I would kill myself before I turned twenty, and so I allowed my escapism free reign to daydream of myself however I wish. When I discovered attractive trannies existed (around 15 or so), I maintained fantasies about being with them - but not sexually. More a desire towards someone who might understand me. I quickly considered becoming one, but was disgusted by the reality of SRS and felt I lacked some inherent femininity required to pull it off. Research into sexology and Blanchard also turned me off for a time. As time passed, these fantasies became progressively more dominating and intrusive. Actual dysphoria was manifested by the time I was 16, but it remained weak enough to be ignored for several years after the fact.
#77
Thank you. I'm very impressed with your willingness to explore your own nature with others. I think that's an overly rare trait online, not just among this group and that one but in general.


Quote:Though I felt no feel dysphoria when I was very young, I found adult men extremely unrelatable. For most of my early childhood, my mother (who had severe BPD and Borderline Personality Disorder) dated a low-IQ Italian man whose idea of entertainment was getting drunk and watching football/NASCAR - or getting high with his guido bros. And the man who I considered my father was miserable and self-hating, with terminal case of oneitis. Either way, I felt a revulsion towards this peasant masculinity as early as eight years old, and I could not see myself in any of them, or in my peers. I could not understand men as anything but brutish.


Very, very interesting. This seems like a common but not essential trend. A generally unpleasant sounding (I figure) upbringing and socialisation in which a sensitive boy is only exposed to insensitive masculinity and bounces off of it. I remember the case study at the beginning of the book 'The Man Who Would Be Queen' opens with an absent father and an emotionally needy mother (amusingly the writer thinks nothing of this and dismisses family circumstances as normal and not at all potentially problematic or relevant in this case).

I know for a fact that this doesn't inherently lead to this, because it also works as a description of me. I do believe it probably has to lead to some kind of neurosis and identity struggle however, because again, it works as a description of me.

Do you feel like you had a reasonably developed sense of a relationship with masculinity through how you saw it around you before you developed the fascination with femininity? It's very tempting to pin a hard causation right here, but I know better than to settle anything that easily. Just interested in how you line these things up chronologically and if any kind of relationship seems apparent to you.

This might sound dumb but were you into video games? Or anything particularly *male* beyond lego? I ask because I know for a fact that while I bounced off of the examples of masculinity all around me irl growing up, I had a role model who taught me that real masculinity was meant to be more than this and undoubtedly put me on the path to being here.


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Anything of the like for you? Doesn't have to be games. For me it wasn't about the mechanical appeal of shooting a gun so much as the greater vision of Halo. The seriousness and scope of its world and conflict, the order and purpose of what's going on. Was there any alternative masculine vision of the world you found appealing at any point?


Quote:Ariosophy (Sunny) once suggest that those who posses higher latent sensitivities are more naturally drawn to fantasize and explore a variety of alternative aesthetic experiences, and are apt to have more balanced sense of maleness/femaleness. tending towards harmony as opposed to polarity. This felt like a deep intuitive truth when I read it, but it is perhaps too flowery for this discussion.

I just see this as unnecessarily convoluted. The sensitive do not want to live like grugs and will bounce off of grug-world. They'll gravitate to finer things, and denied those they'll get weird. As Gore Vidal put it, the unfed mind devours itself. I find the framing of high and low infinitely more useful than 'maleness/femaleness' or whatever that stupid faggot Sunny prefers. I did not lack for femaleness in my childhood. I was surrounded by horrid women who had far too much influence over me. The trouble again was that they were low types. Grug men and stupid, shrill, controlling women. How's that for gender balance?

I think it's in fact quite easy to argue that grug culture is insufficiently masculine, if we define masculinity as self-assertion, cultivation, and aspiration. Grugs are a longhouse-friendly form of humanity. Autists are not. The proof is in who those harpies really go after. But I'm getting off track now and attacking the beliefs of someone who isn't present through a proxy representative, which is a trap that can lead to lots of poor communication and wasted time.

Last thing for the minute

Quote:Actual dysphoria was manifested by the time I was 16

What do you consider to be the difference between all of your feelings up to this point and "dysphoria"? Do you consider this a substantial distinction between dysphoric and pre-dysphoric (whatever that means to you) feelings?
#78
(10-12-2022, 04:06 AM)anthony Wrote: ...

I appreciate your questions. Your first post in this thread was one of the most insightful and careful takes I've read, and was the inspiration to post/engage here in the first place. As interesting as these spaces are to me, I find that few take the time to genuinely and empathetically understand a thing they find distasteful - to put it mildly. It is an admirable and genuine curiosity.

Quote:Do you feel like you had a reasonably developed sense of a relationship with masculinity through how you saw it around you before you developed the fascination with femininity?

Honestly, not in the least. I frankly did not understand masculinity, and immediately resented the caricature I perceived of it. I also did not really understand women, even in my envy of them. Even into puberty, neither gender made much sense to me and I presumed my failure to comprehend was indicative of autism on my part. And what little I did understand of women, I despised. It is a difficult contradiction, to both despise a thing and intensely wish to be it. Ironically, I would say that I have a more developed sense of masculinity now. I have seven years on my wife and have routinely found myself in positions where I had a degree of social influence over younger trannies who esteemed me. The implicit expectations and challenges that come with such a role force one to make an aspirational figure of oneself, even up to fabrication and myth-making, and to promote certain healthier values over those prominent in the milieu. This led to developing an almost sense of paternal duty towards them. At the very least, sometimes I've been successful in pushing them to not cut their dicks off. In so far as I perceive anything masculine above myself, duty and intellectual curiosity are perhaps the only really identifiable traits. Perhaps also an inclination towards edginess?

Quote:This might sound dumb but were you into video games?

Extensively. JRPGs starting at Final Fantasy 7, Metal Gear Solid (and all its sequels), Unreal Tournament, Planescape: Torment, Disgaea, Morrowind, GTA3 (and onwards), Warcraft 3, TF2, WoW, DoTA, DayZ… These days, I’ve become the Fromsoft meme. I still play MMOs occasionally, though I lack the time needed to get as hype-invested in them as I once did.

Quote:Anything of the like for you?

I played MGS 1&2 before I turned 13. They had a deep and lasting influence on my psychology, oriented my initial readings in philosophy, and perhaps traumatized me in certain ways. I also participated in the closed beta of WoW. A cursed and evil game, but it was an incredible awe-inspiring experience to be there in those early days - to find friends and community there, where I lacked them IRL. I don’t really feel that kind of awe from games anymore, and it was perhaps something that could only be experienced if one was present when optimism was still pervasive.

Quote:Was there any alternative masculine vision of the world you found appealing at any point?

Many, mostly anime. Gurren Lagann comes to mind. As does Berserk. Cowboy Bebop. The arc of Shirou in Fate/Stay Night. More recently, Red Dead Redemption 2. Though I preferred dating trannies, I’ve also dated men, and the man I loved most deeply was also the one that exposed me to redpilled (as it was called then) and far-right internet culture.  I loved, worshipped, and idolized him. Perhaps part of me wanted to be him, as much as I wanted to be his. In retrospect, I think some of his personality traits rubbed off on me. He was certainly the most influential as far as masculine visions go. He could simultaneously earnestly promote traditionalism, argue against every facet of what he regarded as modern degeneracy, and then fuck the shit out of me. Yet there was no contradiction in him, no self-loathing. No excuses. He lived in accordance with an absolute autonomy of spirit. When he fucked me, I was in absolute terms a woman to him. If he had fucked gigachad, I have no doubt that he would have called her a good girl after, and slapped her ass. I envied that freedom of spirit.

Quote:What do you consider to be the difference between all of your feelings up to this point and "dysphoria"? Do you consider this a substantial distinction between dysphoric and pre-dysphoric (whatever that means to you) feelings?

All of early transition is a process of recontextualizing the past in accordance with a new narrative. In this case, I actually think both perspectives are useful - but I typically hold dysphoria to begin when one first experiences physical insecurities about the body. Before I was 15, my desire towards being female was more whimsical and fantastic. It brought me humiliation and self-hatred, and a sense of being a defective male. But I did not acutely come to hate my body just yet. It was only when I first started seeing beautiful trannies and perceived the potential of actualization did that hatred begin to flourish.
#79
(10-12-2022, 05:23 AM)Zed Wrote:
Quote:Do you feel like you had a reasonably developed sense of a relationship with masculinity through how you saw it around you before you developed the fascination with femininity?

Honestly, not in the least. I frankly did not understand masculinity, and immediately resented the caricature I perceived of it.

Interesting. Do you feel like you bounced off of masculinity before you could even conceive of it? Where I'm going with this line of questioning is do you think you could take a stab at where your divergence from masculinity started? Do you feel like it was something innate, or a kind of very early socialisation? Or perhaps something different entirely? Or even too murky to ever even try to call?

Quote:Extensively. JRPGs starting at Final Fantasy 7, Metal Gear Solid (and all its sequels), Unreal Tournament, Planescape: Torment, Disgaea, Morrowind, GTA3 (and onwards), Warcraft 3, TF2, WoW, DoTA, DayZ… These days, I’ve become the Fromsoft meme. I still play MMOs occasionally, though I lack the time needed to get as hype-invested in them as I once did.
Quote:I played MGS 1&2 before I turned 13. They had a deep and lasting influence on my psychology, oriented my initial readings in philosophy, and perhaps traumatized me in certain ways. I also participated in the closed beta of WoW. A cursed and evil game, but it was an incredible awe-inspiring experience to be there in those early days - to find friends and community there, where I lacked them IRL. I don’t really feel that kind of awe from games anymore, and it was perhaps something that could only be experienced if one was present when optimism was still pervasive.
Aside from Metal Gear do you feel like you took much from any of these? And could you elaborate on what you took from Metal Gear? And games aside do you feel like any particular media/art was particularly formative for you? I started on video games because I feel like they're the big decisive one for our time.

Quote:Gurren Lagann comes to mind. As does Berserk. Cowboy Bebop. The arc of Shirou in Fate/Stay Night. More recently, Red Dead Redemption 2.
Same questions for these. It sounds like your interpersonal relations are what opened your mind and made you tolerant of a place like this, but do you feel like the media was any kind of priming or shaping influence?

This might sound crass but I have to ask. If you were able to find appealing alternative masculine visions of the world to your retarded dago prole-man of the house, how did this still happen? Is your reading a kind of "Oh that's nice, but not for me"? Do you feel like masculine ideals you might value are beyond you, not worth it, simply not as appealing as chasing feminine ones?

Quote:but I typically hold dysphoria to begin when one first experiences physical insecurities about the body. [...] I did not acutely come to hate my body just yet. It was only when I first started seeing beautiful trannies and perceived the potential of actualization did that hatred begin to flourish.
So you're saying it doesn't *hurt* until it becomes conceivably real and becomes a deprivation? At least in your case? Do you feel like this is more or less the common experience? Any thoughts on "dysphoria" in general?

And thanks again for your willingness to answer. It's nice to not be completely stumbling in the dark on this subject for once.
#80
Wanted to ask Zed if he/she(/xir?) got routinely bullied growing up. I share a similar story with shitty-absent father and lack of masculine role models, but I'm sure that also getting bullied because kids somehow picked on my autism since I was 5 didn't help to ingratiate myself into the masculine ideal.

FYI I'm a man and don't plan to transition but never got to feel myself fully "masculine" in the old or idealised sense. Sometimes I fantasize about being a woman but I think it's mostly something picked from porn, which idealizes and centers itself on female pleasure and turns males (the penis, the only thing visible usually) into objects. I quit a couple of years ago but my brain was damaged and I'm not sure if it will ever heal. I know I wouldn't pass anyway and life under trannydom would be hellish, more than usual. You just have to abandon all rational thought to consider it seriously. I accepted I'm in the middle of nowhere basically.



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