Islam
#1
Let's wind the clock back to sometime between 2008 and 2012. Obama Messianism would reach its peak. Facebook mobilized large masses online - forever changing it. Media adapting to this new frontier would become more shock and clickbait oriented laying the grassroots for the original "12 images that make you say fuck borders n shiet" emotionalist attention grabs. The Left reached its pinnacle as an unstoppable cultural behemoth with an irongrip on the new growing online domain with firm control over the new type of language that excelled on platforms like reddit and facebuch. 

The Right was flanked on all levels, coming off as boring ignorant icky old Christian white men in suits laughing about bombing brown children in smoke filled rooms drafting legislation about how they will "control" a women's body. All channels of social media were libshit dominated to the point the right even started adopting libshit language and thought - a dark age.
 
Enter Islam. The Arab spring occurred and it felt like there was a new terror attack in Europe every other day. Churches turning into mosques at a record pace with nonstop streams of Islamic immigration. People honestly thought "Islam will dominate the world..". The dissident right (as we know it) was not fully established and were in a rock in a hard place with both left and right driving the car off the cliff while the Islamic horde felt like a dominant more 'conservative' force that would soon takeover the west. Many holdouts of the old internet and chans started discussing concepts like "White Sharia". Equivalent to the current Sinophiles of 2020 in that they were championing an outside force. Reigning from 08-16 the "unstoppable" tide of Islam felt like it ended the second Trump took office.

These people were wrong and always will be wrong. Islam by far one of the most dysgenic and retrograde ideologies to ever exist. Islamic societies barely maintain the illusion of functionality with oil money. I will avoid attacking Islam on a theological level because that would be too easy. Their holy book is centered around an illiterate merchant waging tribal warfare and sacking a city with the scope of battles involving less than 80 people. 

The myth surrounding Islam being a patriarchal warrior culture is false. It's actually just another form of longhouse. The women are incredibly overweight and the men live with mommy until they're in their 40s. With a ratio of 4 men to 1 women dating culture is completely fucked. Fat unibrow women demanding Sheikhs and huge amounts of people in the muslim world consume pornography or turn to animals and homosexuality. The explosive cancerous growth of Islam occurred partly due to being one of the first Incel uprisings.
"All these women are spoken for by more powerful men, you must go and take these infidel's women - God will's it."

Islamic history has a huge expansive period with high staying power as the occupied nations quickly stagnate and decline. The mongols wiped out the population of Persia while Islam killed its mind and history. There is no art, music or theatre - all of society is oriented towards ritualism in a book. The most consanguineous population on earth, they can't even do cousin marriage correctly. When muslims come to the west they quickly drop Islam and negrify with rap musics. Generation after generation become increasingly less religious. This isn't even accounting for what's going on at home base.
[Image: https://imgur.com/oO0dc1Sl.jpg]

Excluding spirituality we need to mention the population crash they are experiencing. It's at a point where in Iran hospitals have stopped offering vasectomies and condoms. 

There is this sentiment on the dissident right that "it's over" and European civilization is "finished" and ready to get wiped out by an alien invasive force. I'd wager we're actually in a better spot than everyone else in the sense that we're currently farther down the line dealing with this evolutionary hurdle of crashing birthrates and the death of God. Avoiding going back to draconian religiosity because all roads lead to the same outcome. 

When someone exclaims that "Islam will dominate the world, all will submit to Allah!" ask them:  "Will Islam survive secularism?"
#2
They march 1 step behind us. We're deeper down the hole, but therefore also the ones to exit it first. They're just starting to slip.
#3
(03-29-2022, 03:56 PM)Heil Wrote: "There is this sentiment on the dissident right that "it's over" and European civilization is "finished" and ready to get wiped out by an alien invasive force. I'd wager we're actually in a better spot than everyone else in the sense that we're currently farther down the line dealing with this evolutionary hurdle of crashing birthrates and the death of God. Avoiding going back to draconian religiosity because all roads lead to the same outcome. "

Good point, western dissident rightwingers are probably the only people who in large numbers and not tied to any organization have recognized the current ongoing and future problems with populations. We are ahead of the curve and possibly the closest ones to the solution. The problem still remains that we have no ability for self-determinism. Islam also does not seem resistant at all to secularism, the muslims who come here often cease being muslims in two-three generations. It is precisely because of this that we should hope that Islam continues to be a degenerative force for a while longer. Islam portrays a strong opponent for us to fight and which draws people into right wing dissidence.

Some people have this almost emotionalist response to our institutions being hijacked and occupied where they believe the solution is through some corrective outside force (Islam, China) rather than self determination. A civilization ending mistake.

Christianity's decline is tragic but without it the European mind is capable of leaning back on works of Greek philosophy, Platonism and taking bits and pieces of Christendom crafting an almost Blakean relationship with God going forward. The Arab/Islamic mind is completely incapable in comparison and through targeted destruction of historical and literary works made sure of it. The more skin in the game, the more of a cataclysmic collapse. Generation after generation of dysgenic inbreeding selecting for hyperconformism without rational thinking. The desperate gasp of Wahabbism (re-arabification of Islamic culture) has lost momentum, even with Saud support and deep coffers. A spent force at this point.

All the wealth in the world and muslims want to be Instagram rap stars who live in California, drive BMWs and go to coachella. Excluding east asians all races and cultures are negrifying, having less kids and becoming atheist. I'd argue that the Islamic world is currently experiencing their own "Boomer generation" and we know the trajectory that follows. Whatever civilization can weather this storm and figure out how to make smart people have children again wins the game.
#4
I'd argue that Wahhabism is actually stealth *judaization* of Islam. It's absolutely insanely legalistic, and materialist to a fault... Yet also, Arabs and Jews are basically two brothers that dislike one another

You know what would be ironic? All this negrification leading to a collapse, which will cause a farewell to alms scenario which will result in denegrification of blacks themselves. Too early to tell how likely the scenario is now, but we'll see...
#5
(03-30-2022, 02:56 PM)Svevlad Wrote: All this negrification leading to a collapse, which will cause a farewell to alms scenario which will result in denegrification of blacks themselves.

Hakan made a strong case that many of the "barbaric" practices we associate with Islamic Civilization were in fact part of a forceful de-negrification program:

Quote:what we call Islamic social mores (sex segregation, full-body covering of women, and so on) are in major part a reaction to African and Africanized sexuality, an overwhelming aversion on the part of the expanding Arabs whose conquests and traffic in slaves brought them into contact with the black world. You can see this very strikingly in the geographic distribution of female circumcision: Egypt, the Sahel, the Sudan, and the zones adjoining. (and before anyone jumps in, no, the practice is not restricted to Muslims, as is clearly demonstrated by Ethiopia and interior East Africa, but it emerged with few exceptions in the same mileu: the encounter of Eurasia with Africa.)

in the languid Africa tropics, with their long growing seasons and lack of killing frost, we enter the lands of female labor. this is something almost inconceivable for people whose intuitions were molded in temperate lands, but it's true: so exuberant is the productivity of the land that a single woman can sustain herself and her brood by her own efforts, and not by back-breaking exertion either.. lots of foolproof tubers that can be nestled in shallow dirt. the outcome is promiscuous coupling, beginning at quite young an age, with revolving ensembles of low-investment "big men" who momentarily distinguish themselves through thuggish bravado or showboating, generous understandings of paternity, and by and large no institutions above the mud hut and communal dancing square.

the revulsion must have been intense, and the reaction was dramatic. but perhaps not excessive. clitoridectomy has the appearance of some insane culture-wide psychopathy to someone looking in from the outside, but it has to be said that traumatic interventions like this are rarely ever arbitrary. these mutilatory traditions seem to be part of a winning strategy for maintaining middle eastern relations between the sexes in the face of a precipitous descent into the congo. one could say "civilized" instead of middle eastern - civilization is entirely the outcome of male ownership of the household, which was the concession granted to him in exchange for commitment to his mate and offspring.

Islam remains so potent in the face of the modernity and the Sexual Revolution (which is really a return to the conditions that prevailed in the deep past of all mankind) because it is hardened from over a millennium of battle with Africa.

the Arabs recognized a counterpart to black Africa, another land of weak states, powerful bodies, shocking female liberties, and fearful immodesties-- in the north. (here you should read Ibn Fadlan's travelogue if you haven't.) the African condition is you see not peculiarly African but in large part primordially human, something suppressed by later layers of social inhibition, and where the Neolithic and the taming influence of Axial Age religions was late and weak, something similar would persist, in longing if no longer possible in practice. hence the universal appeal of forbidden love. and wherever the primal past finds itself itching, encased in an ill fit, it wants to strip off its encumbrances. sometimes it does not have too many layers to go.

He considered the Sexual Revolution the "global Africanization" of human behavior; and the Muslims, those most qualified to fight negrification, the rightful inheritors of a declining Europe. I wonder if he'd change his tune nowadays.
#6
What I found the most interesting is that in Africa, female circumcision is initiated and perpetuated by the women...

As for would Hakan change his tune - who knows? The man is an enigma, you don't know when he's doing hyperbole, and when he's fully serious...

We'll see.
#7
@FruitVendor
I think Islam already has proven resistant to secularism because:
-Being defined against huwhites and the West, Islam functions as an ethnoreligion, marshalling followers through ethnic identity without needing true metaphysical faith. This works in Islamic countries and even more so with Muslims living in Western countries, but even with Muslim minorities elsewhere like the Uyghurs, where they're defined against the Han rather than whites. The ethnic and religious identities are rowing in the same direction, in a way Christianity doesn't.
>This also applies to social and technological disruption from the West, which can be perceived as "external" and more easily turned down. You can't appeal to Muslims about the foundational principles of Globohomo being part of "our values" like you can with westerners. I remember reading extracts from some old pamphlets which were passed around before/during the Iranian revolution, about the socially destructive spirit of the machine.
-Islamic identity is also reinforced by Muslims believing themselves to be (true or not) a historically oppressed group (again by whites), so it gains moral legitimacy and support by leftists who otherwise hate religion.
-Unlike Christianity, it's a political-judicial doctrine which doesn't separate church and state. Any economic or democratic crisis provides an opening for Islamic parties to gain power, in a way Christianity does not.
In Europe at least, younger generations muslims are not really becoming more secular, and if their populations rose to sufficient concentrations in North America I think the same thing would happen.

That said, Islam is not any kind of solution for us. It leads to stagnating societies like has been mentioned, and "white shariah" would worsen mass immigration and ethno-racial self-hatred/dissolution. We had our own endogenous answer to "crashing birthrates and the death of God"; eugenics, which isn't so much a solution as it is the horizon which needs to be explored to come to a solution. This exploration was rudely interrupted 80-90 years ago, and that's the thread which should be picked up again, not Islam.

@Chud I don't know that Hakan believed Muslims to be "those most qualified to fight negrification" nor "the rightful inheritors of a declining Europe", rather he just recognized Islam was a Lindy social technology solution to congoid conundrum. Hakan's preferred solutions would always be biological rather than social.
#8
Based on my experience with Muslim diaspora, Islam's reputation as a vital force capable of replacing western civilization is merely Muslim cope being taken seriously and enabled by western leftists. Like Christianity, being dominant for so long in its home region has given Islam a false feeling of invincibility; it believes itself the exception to historical processes even as those processes are clearly playing out. For instance, a Sunni friend of mine will endlessly claim that Islam is immune to the sectarian tendencies of Christianity, proving its superiority, even as the Muslim world is deeply divided along the Sunni/Shia split, with ethno-religious subgroups like the Alawites adopting beliefs as disparate and heretical as reincarnation. The continued spread of Islam hinges entirely on other groups (like western leftists) allowing them to do so with great leniency; nations that actually care about self preservation, like Burma, have shown themselves to be more than capable of cracking down on and repelling Islam. The only way this trend could be reversed is if a more martial race mass adopts Islam and becomes its champion, as the Turks did in forming the Ottoman empire, but don't think that anybody will contest me if I say this is vanishingly unlikely.
#9
Quote:@FruitVendor
I think Islam already has proven resistant to secularism because:
-Being defined against huwhites and the West, Islam functions as an ethnoreligion, marshalling followers through ethnic identity without needing true metaphysical faith. This works in Islamic countries and even more so with Muslims living in Western countries, but even with Muslim minorities elsewhere like the Uyghurs, where they're defined against the Han rather than whites. The ethnic and religious identities are rowing in the same direction, in a way Christianity doesn't.

To what extent do we still think this point is really true, though? I've long heard the line that Islam is the one Religion that actually has the power and will to stand up against Western Progressive values, and it's something I believed myself for some time, but I have strong doubts about it now. I'll hear reports of supposed No-Go zones in Sweden or beheadings in France, but these do just seem like anomalies more than anything. I've encountered a couple dozen millennial and zoomer "muslims" throughout my life, and essentially none of them are actually religious. I think some of the muslims who come as "refugees" in their early to mid adulthood will continue to keep their trad muslim values, but it doesn't seem to me that this carries on into the generations that are actually born and raised in the West. All the muslims I meet aren't actually religious in any sense, at most they might participate in Ramadan but even then it's just a cultural thing. The women are all progressive activists supporting feminism and social justice, and all the men just want to smoke weed and fuck white women.


For example, take this list of The 25 Most Influential American Muslims:
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/05/...l-muslims/

Practically every single one of these is a pozzed liberal faggot in one way or another; in order to "make it" in America, at least in well-mannered, white collar American society, you mostly can't be an outspoken traditionally religious person. And of course, I understand the coming rebuttal: "this is just CNN, of COURSE they're only going to show pozzed muslims." This is true, but these are the people all future western muslims are going to be told to look up to as success stories. The media is never going to show them a successful and well-respected conservative muslim. And like most Americans, they'll simply follow what the media tells them to, directly or indirectly. "If I want to succeed in America, I can, I just have to be a WOKE arab who calls out the white cis heteronormative patriarchy!" and the rest will be history.

And it's not just Millennial and Zoomer Muslims that are buying into the faggotry and social justice nonsense. 2/3 of American Muslims vote for the Democratic Party, and even more than half of MUSLIM MEN vote Democrat:
https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/poli...ial-views/

While I can't speak for every nation, it appears to me that here in America, Islam will in no way actually act as a force against secularism or any other Ill of the West.
#10
@Leverkühn plenty of the terrorists in the US or Europe were partygoers or petty criminals before taking action, lifelong piety or ascetic virtues are not necessary qualities for muslims to employ violence or coordinate politically, economically, socially around Islam and with Muslims. My point is precisely that Islam doesn't need true believers to proliferate, ethnic or economic resentments are enough. 

As to these "influential American Muslims", like I said the situation in America and Europe is different, the Muslim population in the US isn't high enough for them to aggregate like in Europe. The point about them voting Democrat is also something I already brought up; the leftist/Islamic alliance is to be expected, and it's a strength for Islam rather than a weakness. This is nothing new, the communists allied with the Islamists during the Iranian revolution thinking they'd be the ones governing aftewards and contemporary Western leftists are happy to pander to an substitute electorate who are also aligned on their anti-white agendas.
#11
(03-31-2022, 03:00 AM)EricKashambuzi Wrote: @Leverkühn plenty of the terrorists in the US or Europe were partygoers or petty criminals before taking action, lifelong piety or ascetic virtues are not necessary qualities for muslims to employ violence or coordinate politically, economically, socially around Islam and with Muslims. My point is precisely that Islam doesn't need true believers to proliferate, ethnic or economic resentments are enough. 

As to these "influential American Muslims", like I said the situation in America and Europe is different, the Muslim population in the US isn't high enough for them to aggregate like in Europe. The point about them voting Democrat is also something I already brought up; the leftist/Islamic alliance is to be expected, and it's a strength for Islam rather than a weakness. This is nothing new, the communists allied with the Islamists during the Iranian revolution thinking they'd be the ones governing aftewards and contemporary Western leftists are happy to pander to an substitute electorate who are also aligned on their anti-white agendas.

@EricKashambuzi Exactly. David Thomson's "The Returned" shows this quite clearly -- almost all of the Francophone terrorists during the height of the attacks in Europe (circa 2015) had backgrounds as petty criminals, wannabe rappers, and drug dealers. A lot of them found Islam as a way to "cope" with their previous lifestyles, and even then many were not too pious. My mind thinks back to the most brutal Muslim warlord of all, Timur,  who chroniclers said drank wine constantly.
#12
(03-30-2022, 06:19 PM)Gloom Wrote: with ethno-religious subgroups like the Alawites adopting beliefs as disparate and heretical as reincarnation.

We will never truly know the mysteries of the Alawites. I believe them to be crypto-christians/Mazdaism in hiding.
#13
(04-02-2022, 01:24 PM)FruitVendor Wrote:
(03-30-2022, 06:19 PM)Gloom Wrote: with ethno-religious subgroups like the Alawites adopting beliefs as disparate and heretical as reincarnation.

We will never truly know the mysteries of the Alawites. I believe them to be crypto-christians/Mazdaism in hiding.

The Druze are similarly fascinating to me, where the religious teachings are technically hidden from a majority of its members and only a small group of insiders supposedly know what's really going on.

Should add the Druze aren't technically considered Islamic like Alawites are (as far as I'm aware), but it still seems to come out of a sort of neoplatonist islamic movement 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma%27ilism
#14
I have no substantial experience with diaspora Muslims, though if in relocation they end up sucked into the vortex it seems unreasonable to blame them for this before the thing itself.

Among the Arabs, and especially the Jordanians, in my experience, religious retrenchment and especially the firm establishment of niqab (of which I am fond and advocate) is on the surge among the younger people. The streets of Amman are filled with proud beefed-up young men and their closely-veiled wives. The Saudis though, with which I don't have direct experience (only by proxy of former Jewish associates, which speaks for their affiliations itself I suppose), seem like quite the contradiction, veiling more consistently than anyone, and of course the cultural heartland, pure Arab-Islam undiluted, yet corrupted by money and oil to the point of parallel with Salt Lake Mormons. Funny anecdote since it was brought up: Scarsdale-Jew's friend's Saudi dad missed the memo upon visitation that, unlike in Serious Country (so I am told), it is not legal stateside for a man finding another in bed with his wife to shoot the fellow dead on the spot, and remains jailed to the day.
#15
(04-02-2022, 02:13 PM)Leverkühn Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 01:24 PM)FruitVendor Wrote:
(03-30-2022, 06:19 PM)Gloom Wrote: with ethno-religious subgroups like the Alawites adopting beliefs as disparate and heretical as reincarnation.

We will never truly know the mysteries of the Alawites. I believe them to be crypto-christians/Mazdaism in hiding.

The Druze are similarly fascinating to me, where the religious teachings are technically hidden from a majority of its members and only a small group of insiders supposedly know what's really going on.

Should add the Druze aren't technically considered Islamic like Alawites are (as far as I'm aware), but it still seems to come out of a sort of neoplatonist islamic movement 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma%27ilism

The same Sunni friend of mine claims that the Druze are the Islamic equivalent of Satanists. Whether this has any substantial theological backing I have no idea, but I would assume that it's merely an ethnic conflict with religious justification tacked on.
#16
I heard the Yezidi are more often considered literal Satanists by the locals. There's a heap of those weird cults down there...

Anyways, wouldn't this thread do better in The Grail?
#17
I went to a school which was pretty much Muslim majority here in Britain. From my experience a good number of Muslims were pretty religious and they even got the school to make a prayer room for them (I've heard that they had those in surrounding schools as well because of the demands of Muslim students). Muslims are religious and not religious at the same time. They will go out partying, smoking shisha, having sex with hoes, but they will also complete their 5 daily prayers, fast throughout the whole of Ramadan etc. Even the Muslims which were not so religious, were always ready to stand up for their beliefs and act as foot soldiers for the religious Muslims. 

Ive seen statistics which say that British Muslims are getting more religious over the generation, which is quite the opposite of what is happing in America. There is a large contrast between American and European Muslims.
#18
(05-17-2022, 09:58 AM)Guest Wrote: There is a large contrast between American and European Muslims.

This would make sense just from numerical population. European Muslims arrive with a pretty solid diaspora community, whereas American Muslims are much fewer in number and therefore more atomized.

The "religious but also not" aspects are probably mostly to do with cultural difference in sense of religiosity and what that looks like. As far as I can tell Muslims don't bother much in their own countries with teaching young men about general sexual self-control as a virtue, but control sexually directly through patriarchal structure, hence all the rapey stuff when they get thrown into a country where most of the women walk around half-naked and without any sort of formal guardian. And of course hookah is quintessentially Muslim, despite their general prohibition on intoxicants. This is to say, they are being more or less "good Muslims", for what it's worth.
#19
(05-17-2022, 10:48 AM)Opossum Wrote:
(05-17-2022, 09:58 AM)Guest Wrote: There is a large contrast between American and European Muslims.
This would make sense just from numerical population. European Muslims arrive with a pretty solid diaspora community, whereas American Muslims are much fewer in number and therefore more atomized.
I'd also add the difference is influenced by the ways in which Muslims arrive to the areas in question: a large number of muslims arriving in Europe (especially in the past decade or so) have been 'economic migrants' or refugees fleeing failed states. Such people are often incredibly poor and also incredibly religious. They're utterly backwards. Most of Americas muslims arrive through green card programs or some kind of application, and hence have a higher level of wealth and education than the Muslims you commonly see in Europe. The US does take in some refugees (afghans, for instance), but even a lot of those Afghans would have been residents of Kabul who grew up better than their counterparts. The Muslims we Americans see are of a higher caliber because a massive ocean divides us from the MENA world, and such people often have equal or higher levels of education compared to the average American. Maybe we also do a better job of 'secularizing' religious peoples here in America than they do in Europe, I'm not entirely sure.
#20
There was a greentext where a Syrian guy says that all those refugees going to Europe and such are the types of people the locals call "garbage"


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