Japanese Civilization: A Spenglerian Analysis

[JohnnyRomero]

As some of you may know, I have been doing a great deal of research into the civilizational theories of German writer Oswald Spengler. In part of this, I decided to put his theory of set civilizational life-cycles to the test by analyzing a civilizational which Spengler, intentionally or otherwise, never seems to touch on: Japanese civilization. What I have discovered is that Japan constitutes a distinct (and much younger) civilization from its western neighbor China, with its own prime symbol and a civilizational history which oddly parallels that of Western civilization in both absolute timeframe and certain other particularities.

The Japanese Prime Symbol
Spengler believed that each Civilization-Culture was metaphysically directed by and oriented towards a certain prime- or ur-symbol, which he sees as primarily having to do with said civilization’s conception of space and man’s relation with it. He sees a civilization’s great accomplishments and distinguishments in the fields of architecture, art, religion, politics, and science as expressions and explorations of this central symbol or ideal, and that a Culture loses its metaphysical energy and potential once it exhausts the last of these possibilities, at which point it transitions to a rationalistic and materialistic Civilization. “In a word - Greek soul, Roman intellect - this is the difference between Culture and Civilization.” For example, for Classical civilization the defining ur-symbol was the timeless and eternal discrete body, for Arabian civilization it was the conception of the universe as a vast magical cavern where Good fights Evil, and for Western civilization the fundamental drive has been the exploration of its ur-symbol of infinite space.

With this in mind, we may examine elements of traditional Japanese cultural expression in order to discern its own ur-symbol. From my examination of Japanese culture, I believe that the prime symbol of Japanese civilization is that of The Mountain and the Sun. This should come as no surprise, as the flag of Japan bears a sun, the country is known as “The Land of the Rising Sun,” and Japan, being an extremely mountainous country, is full of important and legendary mountains, the most famous of which is the iconic Mt. Fuji which looms large over Tokyo. But what does the ur-symbol of Mountain and Sun mean in practice, and how is it interpreted as a spatial relation? I believe that the common theme present in both symbols of the Mountain and the Sun which informs and undergirds Japanese civilization is in their centrality and radiation. The Sun is a high, central, ultimate ideal, whose rays of light radiate out and give life and illumination to all things. The Mountain is the counterpoint to the Sun, with the radiations going the opposite direction, with many perspectives and paths all ultimately leading up to the same peak. We can imagine the Divine Sun resting atop the Holy Mountain; the Sun’s rays go out in all directions, beckoning all those surrounding it to come towards it. Each man receives a different ray, but they all ultimately come from the same Sun. In a parallel pattern, each man, now drawn by an individual ray of the Sun, takes a different path up the Mountain to all ultimately reach the same peak. This is the essence of Japanese civilization: diverse unity and unified diversity. The expressions are many, but the orientation is one. One of the best examples of this I can give is the great Hokusai’s famous Thirty-Six Views of Mt. Fuji. I believe that this is also expressed in the relative uniformity of anime art styles and the relatively consistent method of creation (i.e. how the manga almost always precedes the anime), at least in comparison to Western animation (which pursues infinite possibility in all directions). From the single ideal emerge many expressions of said ideal, just as many rays each carry the Sun’s light.

[Image: https://www.artelino.com/auctionimages/items/53644a.jpg]

[Image: https://images.ctfassets.net/m3d2dwoc9jk...he-sun.jpg]

This can be contrasted with the relatively aimless and messy Chinese ur-symbol of the Wandering Way, the hither-and-thither journey through the great garden of nature guided by the divine Dao. Japanese cultural expressions are focused on cleanliness, distinction, and order in a way that Chinese cultural expressions simply are not. I see a greater focus of subject (be it a samurai, an animal, the sun, or divine Amaterasu) in Japanese watercolors when compared to their messy and meandering Chinese counterparts. Japanese pagodas and temples, while superficially similar to their Chinese ancestors, show a much greater focus and verticality, a theme which can also be seen in non-Chinese-influenced traditional Japanese architecture. The intricacies of the tea ceremony, the delicate wrapping of sushi, the perfectionist simplicity of the Zen garden, the strict discipline of the samurai. The Japanese soul is motivated by a striving towards an utterly focused and minute expression of a Divine ideal, the unbending and undimming ray of the Divine Sun of Amaterasu which touches his face and his soul.

Look at the adventures of the typically Chinese hero The Monkey King, who in his numerous powers and abilities, his wide range of companions and allies, and in the number of the places he seeks out or merely happens to end up on his journey, lives a life and gives an example which are both utterly unfocused, messy, and meandering. Now contrast that to the 11th century novel The Tale of Genji, in which the protagonist goes not on an epic meandering quest across the whole cosmos to meet Buddha, but rather dedicates his life to, among other things but most notably, the kidnapping of a beautiful 10-year-old girl to groom her into being the perfect bride in imitation of his stepmother, who was a lookalike of his real mother taken as a concubine for this reason by his lovesick father, the Emperor. Like in Egyptian, Chinese, or Western culture, the nurturing Mother figure is quite present in Japanese culture, representing Care for the future and a historic sense of destiny; but in Japanese culture, she is often conflated with the bride as well, or rather becomes the model for the bride (as seen in both The Tale of Genji and Neon Genesis Evangelion, on both extreme ends of the cultural chronology). O how focused is the Japanese on the ideal, and in Genji we see the creator of the first waifu! Remember how the Sun is believed to be not just a goddess, but the literal and physical Mother of the Emperor, who himself becomes the Sun and Mountain of Japanese politics. To the Chinese, the Emperor was merely one who happened to follow the wandering Dao correctly, and he could be usurped and replaced if he stopped following the Dao and thus lost the Mandate of Heaven. To the Japanese, this is utterly unthinkable. The Emperor is as necessary as the Sun and as immovable as the Mountain, for he embodies both in the flesh. Shogun and daimyo fought amongst each other, but none openly rebelled against the Emperor himself, in much the same way that two mountain climbers could choose different paths but never allow themselves to forget or reject their goal, the Peak.

Now, much has been said already about China, and so now we must address the relation of Japanese civilization to its two main influencers: China and India. Japan has two pseudomorphoses which oddly parallel those of the West. Western civilization was influenced in its politics and aesthetics by the old Classical empires to its immediate East, and its religious faith was imported from the Magian civilization still further East; in much the same way, Japanese civilization was influenced in its politics and aesthetics by the old Chinese empire to its immediate West (albeit much more so than even the West was ever infiltrated by Classical influence), and its religious faith was imported from the Indian civilization still further West. However, while we may see Chinese elements in Japanese art and architecture, they are pregnant with an entirely different meaning and spirit. This parallels the stark differences between original Classical statues, sturdy, immovable, archetypal, and mythic, and their Western Renaissance imitators, dynamic, passionate, tragic, and full of potential and movement. No Hellene could have made Pieta, and no Chinaman could have made The Great Wave off Kanagawa.

The Culture-Cycle of Japan
Now we get to a Spenglerian analysis of Japan’s history. From my estimation, Japan seems to be comparable in age to Western civilization, if perhaps a bit older by a couple centuries. What follows is my division of Japanese history in a Spenglerian organic scheme, with important figures pointed out and their analogies in other civilizations given.

Yayoi Period (~300 BC - ~AD 300) and Kofun Period (~AD 300 - AD 538): Japan’s pre-cultural period (~800 years). Colonization of the archipelago by Mongoloid farmers, importation of Chinese cultural forms (Chinese characters, haniwa terracotta soldiers), beginning of the Yamato Imperial House of Japan. Analogous to the Late Mycenaean period for Classical civilization, the Shang Dynasty for Chinese civilization, and the Merovingian and Carolingian Frankish periods for Western civilization.
[Image: https://blog.japanwondertravel.com/wp-co...00x800.jpg]

Asuka Period (538 - 710): The Early Springtime of Japan. Buddhism imported, balancing previously-established Chinese pseudomorphosis with a new Indian pseudomorphosis. Pre-cultural period ends and proper Early Cultural Springtime begins probably around 600 (or perhaps even as late as 700). The Soga clan strongly parallels the Carolingian dynasty of the West with their status as powerful regents and mayors of the palace as well as their aggressive importation and enforcement of a foreign religion (Buddhism and Christianity, respectively) and a preference for older and more centralized imperial political forms (Chinese and Roman/Byzantine, respectively). Prince Shotoku plays the role of the Japanese Charlemagne by declaring himself equal to the Chinese emperor who inspired his family’s reforms (“From the Son of Heaven in the Land of the Rising Sun to the Son of Heaven in the Land of the Setting Sun”), much as Charlemagne was declared “Emperor of the Romans” in defiance of the Byzantine Emperor’s claim to that title. Attempts made to import Chinese-style Confucian order through the Taika reforms and the ritsuryo legal system, although confounded by native aristocracy and loyal Shinto adherents. The Taiho Code in particular rejects Chinese concepts of meritocracy and the Mandate of Heaven in favor of a preference for aristocratic birth and succession. Name of the country changed from the Chinese-imposed “Wa” (the character meaning “submissive, distant, dwarf”) to the new self-appointed “Nippon” (the character meaning “harmony, peace, balance”). In architecture, the Chinese-inspired yet already distinctly Japanese temple complex of Horyu-Ji is constructed, guarded by statues of fierce fire-demons and the austere and mysterious Kudara Kannon statue and with unique solar-pointing poles atop its pagodas. Waka poetry as later collected in the Manyoshu compilation also reflects this primordial emergence of a unique Japanese consciousness out of the ashes of the zombie civilization of China.
[Image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...F%BA85.JPG]
[Image: https://www.mountainsoftravelphotos.com/...Kannon.jpg]

Nara period (710 - 794): The Middle Springtime of Japan. Buddhism is finally fully embraced by Japan as a whole. The major Buddhist temple site of the era, Yakushi-ji, follows Horyu-ji in demonstrating the abandonment of the meandering convolution and excessive ornamentation (especially on the roof) of the genuine Chinese style and an increased focus on the cohesive and austere orderliness of the Whole and the unifying symbol of the solar-pointing pagoda-poles. Likewise, the uniquely delicate and ordered style of Japanese garden-making also emerges. The rise in influence of the shoen manorial estates and private militias leads to political decentralization and further feudalism. Zenith of scholarship with debates over Buddhism between the scholars Tokuitso, Saicho, and Kukai, with the latter two founding the holistic and unifying Tendai and the highly esoteric Shingon schools of Buddhism, respectively; parallels with Augustine in Magian civilization and Aquinas in Western. Some resistance to the Early Springtime Buddhist and Chinese imports in the form of the coalescence of a primordial Shinto orthodoxy through the chronicles of traditional Japanese history and mythology, the Kojiki and the Nihon Shoki.
[Image: https://tendaiuk.files.wordpress.com/201...jpg?w=1400]

Heian period (794 - 1185): The Late Springtime and Early and High Summer of Japan, equivalent to the European Renaissance. Decline in initial Chinese pseudomorphosis and further emergence of a uniquely Japanese spirit, symbolized by the creation of the native katakana and hiragana scripts as alternatives to the Chinese kanji. Manorialist aristocracy dominates with economic, political, and cultural power being concentrated in rural country estates, and seminal works of Japanese literature such as The Pillow Book and The Tale of Genji are written primarily by aristocratic court ladies. Both Tendai and Shingon Buddhism rise in popularity and attempt to curry favor with the reigning aristocracy. Peak of Japanese Culture.
[Image: https://blog.stephens.edu/arh101glossary...namita.jpg]

Kamakura period (1185 - 1333): The Late Summer and Early Autumn of Japan. Fashioning of a world of “states” (technically shogunates under the Emperor) in strict form under the Goseibai Shikimoku military code. Establishment of the “New Buddhist” schools of Rinzai and Soto Zen Buddhism, Jodo and Ji Pure Land Buddhism, and Nichiren Buddhism. Elevation of Japan as a divine land superior to China and India in the Jinno Shotoki history of the country, general anti-Chinese Shintoist puritan sentiments.
[Image: https://buddhaweekly.com/wp-content/uplo...ddhism.jpg]

Muromachi/Sengoku period (1333 - 1603): The Long Late Autumn of Japan. Commercial cities and monetary economies emerge. Rise of absolutism in the form of the daimyo fully overthrowing the old shoen aristocratic manorialism. Beginning of the nanban trade with Westerners (namely the Portuguese and the Dutch), leading to the importation of firearms and Christianity into Japan. Origin of modern Japanese “Zen” aesthetics, along with the codification of the Japanese tea ceremony by Sen no Rikyu. Construction of the cleanly and simply beautiful and utterly un-Chinese golden and silver Kinkaku-ji and Ginkaku-ji temples. The eccentric, iconoclastic, and revolutionary philosophy and writings of the Zen poet Ikkyu may parallel the Classical Socrates, Indian Buddha, and Western Rousseau. Gekokujo revolts of social inferiors along with farmer uprisings and general civil war parallel the French Revolution and subsequent Napoleonic Wars. Toyotomi Hideoyoshi acts as a great world-reshaping revolutionary conqueror and reformer and thus parallels Alexander in Classical civilization and Napoleon in Western civilization. With the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate comes the end of Japanese Culture and the beginning of Japanese Civilization.
[Image: https://static.nationalgeographic.co.uk/...1600&h=900]
[Image: https://www.japan-guide.com/g18/3908_top.jpg]
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Edo period (1603 - 1868): The Early Winter of Japan, an age of unity, urbanization, commercialism, kitsch, and plutocracy. Urban money and intellect dominate politics and society. Equivalent to the Hellenistic and Late Roman Republican periods in Classical civilization and the Victorian-American period (1820 - present) in Western civilization. Early incidental failures to invade China or Korea deny this era its otherwise natural expansionist tendencies, leading to a reaction of isolationism. Many samurai, enslaved by debt to the merchants (largely due to social pressure to purchase increasingly expensive consumer goods and mass-produced arts), lose their land and are forced to either become peasants or to move to an urban center. Influence of the merchant class rises. Rapid initial population growth due to economic growth and urbanization leads to Edo gaining a population of a million before cultural liberalization and high rates of abortion and infanticide lead to a population decline. Rise of mass literacy and mass culture. Urban merchants patronize schools which promote literacy, arithmetic, and lecture-halls reciting old and dead doctrines, and the rationalism, materialism, and ethical humanism of Neo-Confucian philosophy dominates the ideology of the leadership. Shintoism and Buddhism are degraded into merely intellectual philosophies of the mind rather than mystical experiences of the soul.
[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E17cL1TWUAs2XdQ.jpg][Image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...watasi.jpg]

Imperial period (1868 - 1945): The Middle Winter of Japan when the Politics of Blood and Force overthrow the Politics of Mind and Money. Chinese pseudomorphosis fully expelled in favor of a Western one. Emperor Meiji is the Japanese Caesar, the monarch who defeats oligarchy, equivalent not just to the Classical Caesar but also to the Chinese Qin Shi Huang and the Egyptian Akhenaten. Military expansion and imperial ambitions, collective social energy rightfully abandons the metaphysically-exhausted and stale arts and focuses on rapid industrialization and militarization. The Japanese Empire and “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere” would have been equivalent to the Roman Empire had they been allowed to follow their natural course rather than having their lifespans cut short by American intervention.
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[Image: https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/_src/7...2275439524]
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"This image... this is Caesarism."

Zombie period (1945 - present): The Late Winter of Japan. The entirety of Japan is under direct foreign domination for the first time in their history, leading to a slow civilizational death analogous to the death of Egyptian and Mesopotamian under Hellenistic political and cultural hegemony after the conquests of Alexander. Remnant social energy from the preceding Imperial period allows initial economic recovery and prosperity which quickly falls away and bottoms out as the national spirit is fully broken. Birth rate plummets as the civilization loses its collective will to live. The last remnants of the spirit are channeled by individuals into consumer goods (manga, anime, technological toys, etc.) which come and go as fads. Sexual perversion and fetishism dominate, and the natural relations between the sexes are almost totally demolished. The lingering remains of the civilization and its spirit allow for some impotent resistance against Western cultural hegemony, at least for now. Japan reduced to an American military base, tourist destination, and entertainment source.
[Image: http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projec...ide-mr.jpg]
[Image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...C_2004.jpg]
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Conclusion and Final Analysis
I initially undertook this study of Japanese history for two reasons. First, I recognized that Japan had a civilizational spirit quite distinct and dissimilar from that of its neighbor and primary influence, China, and wished to see if I could observe the Spenglerian pattern of cyclical civilizational evolution in a case which Spengler himself had never discussed or even mentioned. In this, I believe that I have successfully drawn up a Spenglerian history of Japanese civilization with the appropriate analogies and parallels drawn - Soga clan as Carolingian dynasty, Prince Shotoku as Charlemagne, Confucianism and Chinese Legalism as Greek philosophy and Roman governance to the Westerner, Buddhism as Christianity, Saicho and Kukai as Aquinas and Dante, Ikkyu as Rousseau or Socrates, Sengoku wars and gekokujo as French Revolution, Toyotomi as Napoleon or Alexander, Edo period as Hellenistic age of urban wealth and decadence, and Meiji as Caesar or Akhenaten. Second, I believed (or maybe more accurately hoped) that perhaps Japanese civilization was younger than Western civilization. The appeal of anime among the sensitive young men of the West played a major part in this hypothesis. Unfortunately, I believe it can be seen now that Japan is, on the contrary, a bit older than the West, with us currently experiencing our own Edo Period of decadence right now (albeit with a much more globalized and inclusive character, likely due to a corruption of the limit-pushing and infinity-seeking Faustian character in contrast to the centralizing and perfection-seeking Fujian spirit of Japan), awaiting our own Meiji Restoration. I know not what will come of Japan now that they have completed their civilizational cycle. Perhaps their destiny shall become tied to that of the West, much as Egypt and Persia became extensions of the Classical world after Alexander’s conquest and Hellenism. And perhaps then a new culture shall arise around the Pacific out of the ashes of both Japanese and Western culture, just as Magian civilization rose out of the Eastern Classical world. But whatever happens shall likely be beyond our own lifetimes. May God preserve the Japanese race, so that the Earth may know their mighty achievements of culture a second time; and may we pray the same prayer for our own race.

[saeik]

Very interesting post and analysis. Eternal Recurrence/Yuga Cycles/'Spenglerian History' are some of the most elegant modes of thinking to approach and juxtapose linear arrangements of history with something more fundamentally periodic. The result is elegant and poetic. But I've always held some reservations about it. Although they diverge from the question of Japan specifically, I feel like this is the right place to address them.


At a practical level, history is neither linear nor periodic, but fundamentally dynamic — the product of extreme complex systems of impulses/responses with innumerable external systems (of which the task of the historian consists of deciding what to focus on, and what to ignore). (Quasi)-periodicity is often emergent in this: The movements of planets about the stars look in our limited vision to obey cyclicity, but the orbit changes and mutates with each passing year. The Spenglerian frame impose two (axiomatic) truths on all civilizations: all are born and all must die, and maps the life process of the rise to fall accordingly. What is strong grows, and what is weak withers.

The last sentence is unimpeachable within nature, but flaw within this mode of reasoning is that civilizations very rarely die, rather mutating, producing zones of gradient strata and dispersion — until the historian sees fit to apply definitions to sediment and separation. Spenglerian history is the long form obituary of that which existed between the two such markings

Here is the wretch: The nature of war as it is being fought, and as it will soon come to be fought — will demand an entirely new methodology.

An example may suffice: I am fascinated by the war in Ukraine. Just as the early 20th century wars marked the age of the ideological partisan, and the rise of decentralized modes of guerilla insurrectionary warfare — the war in Ukraine is marking the transition completely mechanized warfare. The efficacy of the drone has overtaken the efficacy of the soldier, as the frontline soldier is increasingly a combat liability. Further, the next generation fighter jets are increasingly likely to be purely autonomous.

In the Middle Eastern wars at the start of this century, Muslim Jihadists showed us the power of human ingenuity against a far superior force. IEDs and suicide bombings enabled a technologically underpowered adversary to punish, extracting a blood price for every foot of terrain lost. This will likely cease to be viable in the very near future.

If this is indeed the future of warfare, one wonders if we will again see another a warrior society, or if the technologically advanced civilizations will ever truly decay — having acquired the technological capital for an elite to secure its existence and suppress internal revolt with an increasingly minimalistic and automated military.

[Chud]

Excellent post. I've been interested in Spengler's model of cultures "radiating" from a central idea for a while now, and it's interesting to see his theory expanded to a new domain. I don't have much to add except for one bit of small-souled linguistic pedantry.

Name of the country changed from the Chinese-imposed “Wa” (the character meaning “submissive, distant, dwarf”) to the new self-appointed “Nippon” (the character meaning “harmony, peace, balance”).

You're talking about the deliberate change of the character for "Yamato" from 倭 to 和. The former character does mean "dwarf", and the latter "harmony", but the pronunciation never changed - "wa" is still used to mean "Japan" in compound words like 和風 (wafuu, "Japanese-style") or 和食 (washoku, "Japanese food"). Nippon (日本) is an unrelated word, coined from Chinese readings as opposed to the native Japanese "Yamato", and self-evidently analyzable as "sun-root", or "Land of the Rising Sun".

[JohnnyRomero]

If this is indeed the future of warfare, one wonders if we will again see another a warrior society, or if the technologically advanced civilizations will ever truly decay — having acquired the technological capital for an elite to secure its existence and suppress internal revolt  with an increasingly minimalistic and automated military.

I see even modern advanced technology as suffering from the same Achilles' heel as the material prosperity of other eras, namely the cycle of "material prosperity leads to satisfaction and decadence, satisfaction and decadence leads to entropic degeneration and incompetence, entropic degeneration and incompetence lead to an inability to sustain said material prosperity." You see this now in the West with bridges collapsing or US Navy ships ramming into each other at port, or in the complete lack of energy in the space program after the 1970s when compared to before. I do believe that there is linear progress outside of these civilizational cycles, much as species move and spread out and evolve while living their own individual life cycles within the seasons of nature. Spengler said as much himself in his later work, Man and Technics. But ultimately I believe that technology has quite a limited capacity to compensate for wretched human capital. Just look how far South Africa has fallen. We can look at the decline in human capital from the America of the 1950s to the America of today. I don't have much confidence in the ability of systems which actively disincentivize its best citizens from participating in and contributing to it and in fact even actively persecute them for merely existing, while staffing its positions with the stupidest retards it can find.

I think that the effect of technology on warrior culture is interesting. I remember that BAP recently denounced on Twitter how the rise of firearms led to the decline in martial knighthood, and how the invention of the personal body shield from Dune would reverse this. I also remember seeing a thread on Twitter about how the rise of the use of drone swarms for military surveillance has led to the emergence of a new sort of mounted cavalry of sorts in the form of motorcycle-riding terrorist gunmen in the deserts of North Africa, as unlike cars or trucks these motorbikes can move and maneuver much more quickly and deftly and can be easily hidden inside a house to avoid being spotted by said drone swarms. Both very interesting ideas.

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JohnnyRomeroName of the country changed from the Chinese-imposed “Wa” (the character meaning “submissive, distant, dwarf”) to the new self-appointed “Nippon” (the character meaning “harmony, peace, balance”).

You're talking about the deliberate change of the character for "Yamato" from 倭 to 和. The former character does mean "dwarf", and the latter "harmony", but the pronunciation never changed - "wa" is still used to mean "Japan" in compound words like 和風 (wafuu, "Japanese-style") or 和食 (washoku, "Japanese food"). Nippon (日本) is an unrelated word, coined from Chinese readings as opposed to the native Japanese "Yamato", and self-evidently analyzable as "sun-root", or "Land of the Rising Sun".

Thank you for the correction, I was unaware. I misread the latter character for Yamato as an abbreviated form of 日本.

[parsifal]

commendable work, what was an oversight in spengler's scholarship has become an opportunity to test its validity on something near to our hearts. as i said in my post about mishima the commonalities between japanese civilization and our own are especially startling considering modern archaeology strongly suggests our peoples have no shared origin. given the irreversible westernization they underwent and their recent profound influence on western culture i think it is safe to say that as we look into the future, the soul of japan and the soul of the west are on a convergent path.

[JohnnyRomero]

i think it is safe to say that as we look into the future, the soul of japan and the soul of the west are on a convergent path.

!

This statement possesses deep metaphysical meaning and significance. Let us think about how pre-cultural civilizational development around the Pacific Rim would be affected following the elimination of Distance by transportation technology. I believe that the Pacific was destined to be to the Japanese Empire as the Mediterranean was to Rome, and perhaps it shall someday be so to a post-Western America, decoupled from Europe and culturally colonized by Japan much as Rome was by conquered Greece.

[parsifal]

i'm admittedly biased in that i deeply dislike america but i have a hard time imagining it as continuing to be the "center of the world" as it were. simply put america is perhaps the least opportune place in the world for anything new to flourish for want of truly unowned space, and transportation technology affects everywhere else too. but now we are entering the realm of prognostications which are far beyond our foresight.

[JohnnyRomero]

i'm admittedly biased in that i deeply dislike america but i have a hard time imagining it as continuing to be the "center of the world" as it were. simply put america is perhaps the least opportune place in the world for anything new to flourish for want of truly unowned space, and transportation technology affects everywhere else too. but now we are entering the realm of prognostications which are far beyond our foresight.

I do not foresee America as a center. Let me show what I foresee in a map.

[Image: https://i.imgur.com/6aHXY03.png]

A brief explanation of this map which I thought and drew up in a couple minutes on a whim:
Pacific Zone: I foresee the development of a pre-cultural area centered around the Pacific after the decline/fall of Western Civilization and its American Empire after a few centuries, drawing from the remaining racial and spiritual excellencies of the Japanese, Polynesian, and Anglo races. Southeast Asia has always been a cultural crossroads without much of a distinct identity, and I do not see this changing much in the future. I think that this new culture's identity will probably be defined by an age of great piracy waged against Chinese shipping. I foresee a century or two of proper Chinese dominance of this area after the decline of America, but I don't think it will last long. I see the nationalistic and revanchist political energies of China, India, and parts of the Islamic world as borrowed energy from the West, analogous to the Hellenistic post-Alexandrian states where you had nominal Egyptian pharaohs battling Persian shahs yet all of whom were Greeks with Greek ideas and ways of thinking. Hindutva nationalism and Chinese Third Worldism are both artificial phenomena which are unbefitting their host nations, and without Western pressure (and economic aid to leech off of), these nations will slowly but surely fall back into the ossified lassitude of fetid rice paddies, overcrowded cities, and stifling bureaucracy which is their norm. Hindoos and Chinamen have their nationalist rallies and fervor, but all creative energy and novelty remains drained from their cultures.

Eurasian zone: I agree with Spengler in his assessment of Russia as a young culture. The current Ukraine War, with a young culture in its early Springtime battling with an older & drier civilization on the latter's margins is analogous to the Crusades for the West and the ministry of Jesus for Magian civilization, and as such I believe that this will be of the utmost importance for the Russian consciousness. I foresee Russian/Eurasian civilization being one of the only truly young and creative forces in the coming centuries. It will likely absorb the eastern half of Europe and all of Turkic/Persian Central Asia into its cultural orbit. Perhaps China will fall back into a new Warring States period, most of which will be Russian vassals.

Islamic zone: While Magian civilization has been old and out of gas for a millennium or so at this point, and while Arab nationalism and to a lesser extent Islamism are both highly Westernized interpretations of Magian culture, I do see something youthful and vital in certain strains of Islamism. The old "inshallah" fatalism of the Magian cave-world replaced by the Earth as Holy Battlefield, Allah's will as something for men to enforce by their own hand... I look towards Afghanistan, Chechnya, ISIS, and to some extent Saudi Arabia for the seeds of a post-Magian, truly Islamic civilization. But only time will tell - perhaps Islamism is merely a blip on the radar, replete with violence but empty of spirit.

Mexican zone: I see elements of a new, young proto-culture rising in Mexico, especially in their weird death-cults (e.g. San Muerta) and bizarro art. I could easily see a new culture rising out of that barbarian land, especially if America declines and dispossessed young white men from that land learn Spanish and decide to make their own fortunes as pirates, barbarians, prophets, or warlords in the American Mediterranean and the adjacent lands.

Atlantic & Southern Cone zones: Not quite sure, just that there are plenty of white people here, and I could see them forming their own cultural gravities and centers. I include Morocco in the Atlantic zone because it has always been a weird outlier to the rest of the Arab and Islamic world, and I could see them being drawn into the cultural orbit of a resurgent post-Spanish or post-French Atlantic culture.

[Svevlad]

Good opening post OP, just some small nitpicks: accidentally put AD instead of BC for the start of the Yayoi period;

But something here felt off, as if there is a bigger picture... And then I realized it: above the cultural/civilizational spirit, lies the much sturdier RACIAL spirit. Though Spengler's usage of "race" is far more local, this can work on biological clades as well - forming in certain "similar environments" after all.

That means the Japanese have a racial symbol/motif/theme they share with their Chinese and Korean neighbors, from which their Sun-and-Mountain (I prefer "summit" - Japan as a "summital" civilization) aspect arose as a "cope" or "adaptation."

And this Oriental theme is one of CONSTRICTION. Think about it, where the East Asian race emerged - the plains of China, and it's surroundings. Compared to Europe, the "nice zone" is tiny! Immediately to the north is a desert-steppe, or the dark, icy taiga. To the south, unbearably hot, rugged rainforests full of dangerous wildlife. To the west, a horrific desert, and some of the most extreme mountains (that are also a desert to boot) on Earth. The core of the land is a swampy, utterly flat forest. When it floods periodically, you run to the rugged mountains of Korea, Hubei, Sichuan, etc etc.

Wherever you go, you're either in a gorge, on a razor thin mountain ridge, or in a maze like forest full of impossibly complex hydrological systems, where you can barely tell if you're going up or down, or anywhere for that matter. Constriction, being limited - this is the formative experience of the Oriental, influencing their societies prone to extreme conformism to this day.

And the 2 strategies that emerged. The Koreans and Japanese, moving into more rugged lands, adopted the Summital approach. They were constricted by the ridges and ravines and gorges and valleys. The road is 1, and the way is 1.

Meanwhile the Chinese, in their enchanted flood-prone forest, a place perfect for getting utterly lost in, developed a more fatalistic, "Wandering" approach. That is until they rendered it obsolete by chopping down every single tree on the Chinese Plain and putting every single stream into a defined channel - Order to Chaos. Yet with this they allowed their population to explode, resulting in themselves being the perpetrators of their own Constriction. The temperate forest was replaced with a concrete one, and gave unusual results that might be hard to put to words for now...

Compare this to the Aryans, who arose on the Steppes, an infinite, flat expanse, with no limits. No wonder that the Western Civilization, being one of the first "pan-racial" ones, took it's own Racial Motif of Infinite Space as it's civilizational one.

[Guest]

Modern day Japan is how the West would be if christianization and leftist infiltration of the institutions/counter culture would have not happened .

[Svevlad]

Entirely composed of yes-men who turn retarded when presented with something novel because they're so buck broken by the tatemae-honne distinction that they're basically NPCs?

The next Japanese civilization will probably be led by Burakumin descendants, due to reasons described here:

https://peterfrost.substack.com/p/castes...ary-stasis

[Guest]

No,rather because Japanese religion is the most similar to the ancient european paganism and their conservative society is similar to 1950s America.And also this https://www.eupedia.com/history/similari...ians.shtml

" 3. Roman society was polytheistic and didn't mind mixing elements of different religions and philosophies together. Being atheistic was not a problem either. The same is true in Japan, Korea and (pre-/post-communist) China, which mix elements of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and, in Japan's case, also animism.

4. Both Roman and Oriental temples were/are typically open, with pillars around the main hall, and a statue of the god inside. This contrasts sharply with the hermetically closed Christian churches, some of which look almost like castles (notably those of the Romanesque/Norman period).

8. Roman and traditional East Asian buildings were/are built more horizontally than vertically - usually on only one or two storeys. Typical European city centres have had houses built on at least 5 or 6 storeys at least since the Renaissance. It is also a defining feature of churches and cathedrals to rise high above the cityscape - something absent from Roman and Asian cities.

9. Many houses, temples and public edifices were painted in bright red in ancient Rome, which also happens to be the most common colour for Oriental houses and temples, especially in China. On the other hand, Western Europeans have since the Middle Ages favoured unpainted stones or bricks, or white/grey render, while Scandinavians, central and eastern Europeans and Italians like to paint their houses in a variety of pastel colours (yellow being the most popular).

10. Depictions of imaginary monsters and wild beasts (including lions and leopards used in Colosseum games), which are omnipresent in Roman mosaics, remind of the traditional Chinese or Japanese ones on temples and in art in general. Europeans may have kept mythological scenes from ancient Rome or Greece, but they discarded monsters as unrealistic and prefer tamer animal depictions (little birds, dogs) to scary ones. "

[parsifal]

Modern day Japan is how the West would be if christianization and leftist infiltration of the institutions/counter culture would have not happened .

the west has reached far greater heights than japan since its inception. you'd trade all of that just to expire more gracefully? you are a spiritual geriatric.

[Guest]

https://twitter.com/GiveMeRumRaisin/stat...2559393794

Oh no no no, Amarna-sisters. We got too cocky.

[JohnnyRomero]

https://twitter.com/GiveMeRumRaisin/stat...2559393794

Oh no no no, Amarna-sisters. We got too cocky.

A fair critique I guess, although it's interesting that he says this:

I'm sorry but most of Western influence in Japan is more important to Westerners than it is to Japanese ppo

And then goes on to post about the Cleveland Cavaliers or whatever American sportsball team. I think that Japan is still too culturally alien to become majorly Westernized, but I think that the low birth rates and general spiritual malaise and lack of vitality or striving in Japanese culture is far more significant then nominal Western influence. Japan is, quite fittingly, committing national hara-kiri in response to the humiliation of American captivity and subjugation. A race of masters is that which will choose death over slavery; noble animals refuse to breed in captivity.

[parsifal]

i'm glad that tweet got posted, the first time i saw it got me thinking and collated various things i'd noticed about the relationship between the japanese and westerners. every time i've seen this topic come up, it promptly ends with two positions: "the japanese are an honorary aryan master race" and "the japanese are simply not white" with no further discussion. i don't think anyone's being honest with himself here, there are personal biases which are impossible to ignore: everyone likes anime and other products of japanese culture to some extent, but nobody wants to say "okay sure they're not white, but i think anime girls are cute so i'll make an exception in my racism." there are plenty of historical anecdotes illustrating the mutual fascination between the west and japan which predates anime and i could go on but that's not what i want to get at.

the fact is japan is an alien civilization to us and that goes both ways. however the west is obviously much greater in both size and importance; japan will never be a threat to our existence or self-conception, so we can safely brush these questions aside. for japan they are impossible to ignore. they have to look at the occident and think "what does it mean to be japanese in a world dominated by those people?" there's no opting out and this isn't an easy question to answer, it only becomes more difficult when you zoom in to right-wingers around our sphere who face constant reminders of racial matters (and most of these are japanese-americans).

that tweet is a perfect example of the quasi-isolationist position i've seen where the response is to insist japan is this completely unique thing that westerners will never understand and shall remain that way forever. this comes off as a cope at odds with reality and i think the fact that this guy is quote tweeting the cleveland cavaliers says enough.

the other response i've seen, particularly from masaki is to lean in to the honorary aryan idea and even proclaim that japan is more "white" than some actual europeans! i find this rather undignified and lacking in that elegant refinement japan is so famous for, like an esteemed guest who overstays his welcome and rudely comments on the decor.

these neatly mirror the common positions on the western side, so i'm led to believe they are just as cliched and thoughtless. fate has brought these two civilizations together the same way it does with inexperienced young people and neither really understands its own feelings for the other. i don't know if i've succeeded in getting any sort of point across but i wanted to get something out there to see if other people have any interesting thoughts on the matter. i really think there's a lot here that has gone completely ignored.

[chevauchee]

I disagree, I think what you see as prime symbol, this unitary impulse, is Confucian pseudomorphosis in the full Spenglerian sense. Prime symbol of Japan would be the endless war of spirits; "Shintoism". I cannot say more now but will post on this in depth when I have time

[JohnnyRomero]

I disagree, I think what you see as prime symbol, this unitary impulse, is Confucian pseudomorphosis in the full Spenglerian sense. Prime symbol of Japan would be the endless war of spirits; "Shintoism". I cannot say more now but will post on this in depth when I have time

Interesting perspective - this would explain why the centralizing imperial impulse, while always proclaimed, has always been so weak in practice. Also ties in with Japanese martial traditions, superstitions, etc.. I look forward to your post.

[Guest]

Good opening post OP, just some small nitpicks: accidentally put AD instead of BC for the start of the Yayoi period;

But something here felt off, as if there is a bigger picture... And then I realized it: above the cultural/civilizational spirit, lies the much sturdier RACIAL spirit. Though Spengler's usage of "race" is far more local, this can work on biological clades as well - forming in certain "similar environments" after all.

That means the Japanese have a racial symbol/motif/theme they share with their Chinese and Korean neighbors, from which their Sun-and-Mountain (I prefer "summit" - Japan as a "summital" civilization) aspect arose as a "cope" or "adaptation."

And this Oriental theme is one of CONSTRICTION. Think about it, where the East Asian race emerged - the plains of China, and it's surroundings. Compared to Europe, the "nice zone" is tiny! Immediately to the north is a desert-steppe, or the dark, icy taiga. To the south, unbearably hot, rugged rainforests full of dangerous wildlife. To the west, a horrific desert, and some of the most extreme mountains (that are also a desert to boot) on Earth. The core of the land is a swampy, utterly flat forest. When it floods periodically, you run to the rugged mountains of Korea, Hubei, Sichuan, etc etc.

Wherever you go, you're either in a gorge, on a razor thin mountain ridge, or in a maze like forest full of impossibly complex hydrological systems, where you can barely tell if you're going up or down, or anywhere for that matter. Constriction, being limited - this is the formative experience of the Oriental, influencing their societies prone to extreme conformism to this day.

And the 2 strategies that emerged. The Koreans and Japanese, moving into more rugged lands, adopted the Summital approach. They were constricted by the ridges and ravines and gorges and valleys. The road is 1, and the way is 1.

Meanwhile the Chinese, in their enchanted flood-prone forest, a place perfect for getting utterly lost in, developed a more fatalistic, "Wandering" approach. That is until they rendered it obsolete by chopping down every single tree on the Chinese Plain and putting every single stream into a defined channel - Order to Chaos. Yet with this they allowed their population to explode, resulting in themselves being the perpetrators of their own Constriction. The temperate forest was replaced with a concrete one, and gave unusual results that might be hard to put to words for now...

Compare this to the Aryans, who arose on the Steppes, an infinite, flat expanse, with no limits. No wonder that the Western Civilization, being one of the first "pan-racial" ones, took it's own Racial Motif of Infinite Space as it's civilizational one.

I'm sure they wish they were Serbian.

[JohnnyRomero]

Edited the post to add some much-needed images.