Jedi and Sith: A study in pedagogical erotology

[GoldenOstrich]

The Star Wars universe fascinates me with its exploration of pedagogical dyads and its version of pedagogy in general. Readers might know that the Jedi select their younglings very early and reject “applicants” - especially if they are too old. What is especially noteworthy is that the universe doesn’t condemn “kidnapping” these children. Children aren’t seen as property of families, races, species, or federations. Naturally, the strongest in the galaxy, an order, can take these highly gifted children as their own. A blood test is done, to confirm their midichlorian count, but the masters who search know it intuitively.


At puberty these younglings get assigned, by the high council, a master - a dyadic partner. This becomes their person. Family terms like father, mother, brother, sister, don’t do the relationship justice - also friend is wrong, but it is close. It is still a master. Now younglings are called padawans. Ascetic practice and self-mastery has begun before this transition, but in a setting with multiple different teachers and multiple students. The process with the personal master is more of a refinement. 


Of course, George Lucas, uses retarded Holocaustianity and its adjacent slave morality, (the strongest/the messiah is the slave) to pass the hollyweird gates, but sneaking in this institution into a mainstream franchise is impressive, especially in its broader diffusion in “the clone wars”.


Readers might know the “George-Kreis” an nietzschean Männerbund who communally centred on a charismatic Master. Most famous acolytes became famous literati or tyrannicidal conspirators. Their basis was voluntary association. They could institute, together, a form of asceticism of the strong. Among many things their discipline included the banning of music (because George considered it subhuman at some point) and movies - instead the followers chose Plato and Shakespeare - poetry. They were in part selected for their physical beauty or noble or noteworthy lineage and mental distinction. This thoroughly elitist approach wasn’t enough, a further criterion was the manner in which they read poetry in their first session in front of others. What were they willing to feel in front of others? How did they treat the word of the master?


The Sith are in most constellations one Sith of pure lineage who is the Master and the student who is a fallen Jedi. Their dyadic rule, “the rule of two” is their main vehicle of power. Their relationship is also voluntary association, dyadic teaching, but their order is even more exclusionary. Both Jedi and Sith have no interest in pupils who are not naturally gifted. 


In modern terminology: physiological development and enormous neuroplasticity of children has to be harnessed. It would be a shame not to differentiate the educational institutions and treat everyone as the same. The sick will make the strong weaker. As for eros, like most modern, I have no clue but in contradistinction to most I at least know that it works.

[JohnTrent]

This is a good thread. I will try to contribute, but keep in mind I haven't seen the original Star Wars movies (plus the prequels and The Clone Wars) in a long time. If there are any errors in continuity or plot-points, refer back to this for an explanation.

Pedagogy is the perfect means for interpreting the Prequels, the skeleton key to understanding what makes them unique. Everything within the three films is a struggle between the organic and the inorganic, the value of base life and life guided by higher value. Anakin is representative of the organic valuable life that transcends the Republic and the Jedi Council, but the Council is usually hesitant in including him. It is by fear of his abilities that they should reject his power; his inclusion into the Order may topple all figureheads and create something entirely new. Only by the assistance of Qui-Gon is he allowed into the ranks of the Jedi Order, which demands of him ascetic life — something he resents, and must continually battle against in his own thoughts. It is unquestionable that he has merit despite his upbringing, but his origins are always formed by conflict against the world around him. Where the Order fails in his education is in how they seek to refine his spirit, which is to say that they do not make considerations about it enough to make the perfect Jedi. He is the ultimate exception, forever an outcast despite how strongly he will use the Force in adulthood. For the sake of example, midichlorians could be substituted for IQ: the high midichlorian reveals that his "spirit" will bring him great results. It would be easier for the Order to substitute Anakin for a lower-IQ padawan, because that padawan can be utilized better for their interests.

The question of the inorganic is best applied to the Order, the Separatists, and the Clone War that they must wage. It is base life that must be used, either in a totally mechanical way like the Droids, or the compromise of Clones. The love that Anakin starts to feel towards Padme goes hand in hand, because the war between Clones and Droids is a war of continued reproduction: the Separatists reproduce and mobilized a mass army of machines, and now the Order/the Republic must make use of industrialized reproduction in their favor. It must appear then that the Jedi Order is in a weakened state, being ascetics that cannot do anything other than making use of what few promising youth they find. The Clones are not in themselves an ill omen, to be sure, but their existence in response to the Droids reveal an inherent fault (opposed to the Empire's use of Clones, which I'll get to). Anakin, never properly initiated and always with a threatening aura, knows that the Jedi cannot survive in their present state, choosing to rebel against the Jedi's arbitrary ascetic rules. He is guided by a love that is more divine than the temperate mysticism currently practiced, and his attraction towards Padme is an attraction towards power. She is not a Jedi, she is simply a part of the political machine. It is a love built at once on something natural and something self-interested. The only thing that prevents their love is a slowly antiquated authority, which, once Luke Skywalker is born, proves that the Order had erred greatly. Many Luke Skywalkers could have been created had the Jedi not banned reproduction. They cannot embrace the beauty of change. Rather than perpetuating their power, the Jedi voluntarily chose to weaken it, preventing the existence of great men.

The world before The Empire is one of petty despotism, duplicity, and crime. Waldo and others are the natural result of a Republic which has chosen to ignore its duties, some of whom are invulnerable to the workings of the Force anyway. The Galactic Republic does not manage its power in any absolute way, and meets the consequences of it. This is different with the Sith, having a cyborg like General Grevious in the role of tactician. It is via the voluntary association of the Sith that he has mastered Jedi abilities, becoming a formidable enemy against the Order. I would be remiss if I did not mention Palpatine. He is a political actor who has seen through the mirage of the Jedi, and acknowledges its feebleness. The film portrays him as a unscrupulous conspirator, always working behind the scenes to persuade Anakin (or, putting it another way, using psychological suggestion to force his love with Padme). I prefer to see him as someone who realizes the grand potential of Anakin, the perfect specimen that can destroy the weakened Jedi and institute a new Empire. Qui-Gon did not live long enough to combat Anakin's desires/ambitions, but would certainly do what Obi-Wan did. The Sith are nothing more than efficient men who have trained their power and find their world wanting. Many struggles, many battles, are never begun; sterile power is the rule. If a Great Man should exist, separatism and a Clone War must occur.

Let us think about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis, an essential story that should not be ignored:

Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did.

Darth Plagueis, who inspired Palpatine, was someone who had mastered the organic. He could create life and prevent death, but was under the false impression that individual power is a constant. Heraclitus' "Change is the only constant" rung true, for Palpatine got the upper hand, realizing that his master was approaching his descent. When Palpatine tells this to Anakin, it is a tale which inspires Promethean ambition: he, who had for his entire life been put under the stress of belittling elders, has just now heard a story that reveals greater heights of power than he imagined. Anakin, to be expected, wants to know this for himself, because the symbol of Plagueis is a symbol of ambition, conquering reality itself. 

The Sith association is one that is genuinely concerned with the use of power, and is in some ways, more honest than the rule of the Republic. Its use of Clone Troopers when the Empire is instituted is because a mass mobilized force has proven to be of galactic use during the Clone Wars. Nothing has yet contested the use of Droids and Clones, it is only the principal powers like the Jedi that are called into question after the fact. If anything, the orchestrations of Palpatine in creating the Clone War are a way of proving that the values of the Jedi are hollow. When the Jedi reacts to the developments of the Empire after it is instituted, it acts in support of a retrograde existence, where interstellar conquest and absolute control over territories is rejected for the sake of useless peace. As always, it trains its newcomers to irrational ends, everything related to love, domination, and perpetual war squandered. That the Disney sequels revive the Empire proves that the Jedi must inevitably be extinguished, because there is a permanent necessity for the Empire to exist. As long as there are promises of greatness (through the midichlorians), an Anakin Skywalker will continue to be born, chosen to inaugurate a better future.

---

While on the subject of the Prequels, here is a chart I wished to attach that was posted on /tv/ a few years ago.

[anthony]

The Star Wars universe fascinates me with its exploration of pedagogical dyads and its version of pedagogy in general. Readers might know that the Jedi select their younglings very early and reject “applicants” - especially if they are too old. What is especially noteworthy is that the universe doesn’t condemn “kidnapping” these children. Children aren’t seen as property of families, races, species, or federations. Naturally, the strongest in the galaxy, an order, can take these highly gifted children as their own. A blood test is done, to confirm their midichlorian count, but the masters who search know it intuitively.

It's not implied that the jedi leverage their strength to do this. They're widely respected and the force seems to function as a kind of universal cult which can make natural claims on people. It's not "We're taking him", it's "this is where he belongs".

Of course, George Lucas, uses retarded Holocaustianity and its adjacent slave morality, (the strongest/the messiah is the slave) to pass the hollyweird gates, but sneaking in this institution into a mainstream franchise is impressive, especially in its broader diffusion in “the clone wars”.

I don't think Anakin being a slave is any kind of trick. The vision of Star Wars is a vision of irresistably grand universal order which is manifesting and asserting itself from every direction in all directions at all times. There is no reason why he shouldn't be a slave. There's no incongruity here. Neither in Luke's mother being a princess.

The Sith are in most constellations one Sith of pure lineage who is the Master and the student who is a fallen Jedi. Their dyadic rule, “the rule of two” is their main vehicle of power. Their relationship is also voluntary association, dyadic teaching, but their order is even more exclusionary. Both Jedi and Sith have no interest in pupils who are not naturally gifted.

The Sith actually have "interest" in the sense you describe here, but the Jedi I would say don't. Your tone here suggests a cynicism that's obviously not present. All Jedi give themselves over to something greater than themselves, while the Sith attempt not to. Though the Sith way is arguably more voluntary. The Jedi one could say condition as much or more than they teach. The idea is to give one's self over to a greater harmony and become one with the force. While the Sith aim to be wilfully dissonant. Whether or not it's actually possible to rebel against The Force is up for debate, but there is at least a more visible personal will on display.

In modern terminology: physiological development and enormous neuroplasticity of children has to be harnessed. It would be a shame not to differentiate the educational institutions and treat everyone as the same. The sick will make the strong weaker. As for eros, like most modern, I have no clue but in contradistinction to most I at least know that it works.

Sure, but as I keep saying when education comes up, this all falls into place naturally once we decide on and commit to a vision of what humanity is supposed to be. The practices emerge from that. And our problem today is on one hand wrong visions (libtard vulgar egalitarianism, place smart kids in classes with niggers and everyone becomes a soulful peoples' king) and no visions (thinking about stuff is scary and schizo n shieeet).

The Jedi and Sith are defined by different visions of human direction. How they cultivate people follows from there. I'm going to reply to JohnTrent maybe but before that I'll share this so I don't forget. Shame Worley vanished on us.

[anthony]

This is a good thread. I will try to contribute, but keep in mind I haven't seen the original Star Wars movies (plus the prequels and The Clone Wars) in a long time. If there are any errors in continuity or plot-points, refer back to this for an explanation.

Pedagogy is the perfect means for interpreting the Prequels, the skeleton key to understanding what makes them unique. Everything within the three films is a struggle between the organic and the inorganic, the value of base life and life guided by higher value. Anakin is representative of the organic valuable life that transcends the Republic and the Jedi Council, but the Council is usually hesitant in including him. It is by fear of his abilities that they should reject his power; his inclusion into the Order may topple all figureheads and create something entirely new. Only by the assistance of Qui-Gon is he allowed into the ranks of the Jedi Order, which demands of him ascetic life — something he resents, and must continually battle against in his own thoughts. It is unquestionable that he has merit despite his upbringing, but his origins are always formed by conflict against the world around him. Where the Order fails in his education is in how they seek to refine his spirit, which is to say that they do not make considerations about it enough to make the perfect Jedi. He is the ultimate exception, forever an outcast despite how strongly he will use the Force in adulthood. For the sake of example, midichlorians could be substituted for IQ: the high midichlorian reveals that his "spirit" will bring him great results. It would be easier for the Order to substitute Anakin for a lower-IQ padawan, because that padawan can be utilized better for their interests.

Again, this language strikes me as misguided. "Results". The Jedi are not selfish or pragmatic. They are a sincere spiritual society of religious guardians. Comparisons to Napoleon do not belong in this context. Anakin is not Napoleon or any kind of meritocrat in revolt. If anybody is it's The Emperor. Because he is actually better than everyone else in the field he aspires to take over on their own terms(politics). But, he also destroys the Jedi to do that. Which in my opinion makes this far more interesting.

Anakin is not a better Jedi, by their own terms. He is what they were afraid of. Which is not someone better than them. It's someone who won't take to their conditioning. Who won't become one of them. They aren't afraid he's going to beat them up and declare himself emperor of the force, a title which he naturally has more right to than they do because of his superior force-IQ.  I know I say they're basically the same thing or correlate very heavily, but sensitivity still strikes me as the better term for this. Anakin's midichlorians mean he is strongly resonant with the universe. Resonating, but disturbed. Potentially not able to be conditioned towards harmony. The Jedi were afraid that their training would make him more powerful but not more whole. They were afraid of creating an empowered human rift in the natural order of the world. Which is right and basically their job. They are the gardeners of sentient existence. They don't owe Anakin training as a birthright due to his potential. They believe that they owe the universe balance. Anakin had the potential to be a great imbalancer. Their worst suspicions proved to be correct, even if their own mistakes in judgement along the way contributed. Their constant suspicion of Anakin of course made him more unstable and hostile to their notions of order.

The question of the inorganic is best applied to the Order, the Separatists, and the Clone War that they must wage. It is base life that must be used, either in a totally mechanical way like the Droids, or the compromise of Clones. The love that Anakin starts to feel towards Padme goes hand in hand, because the war between Clones and Droids is a war of continued reproduction: the Separatists reproduce and mobilized a mass army of machines, and now the Order/the Republic must make use of industrialized reproduction in their favor. It must appear then that the Jedi Order is in a weakened state, being ascetics that cannot do anything other than making use of what few promising youth they find. The Clones are not in themselves an ill omen, to be sure, but their existence in response to the Droids reveal an inherent fault (opposed to the Empire's use of Clones, which I'll get to). Anakin, never properly initiated and always with a threatening aura, knows that the Jedi cannot survive in their present state, choosing to rebel against the Jedi's arbitrary ascetic rules. He is guided by a love that is more divine than the temperate mysticism currently practiced, and his attraction towards Padme is an attraction towards power. She is not a Jedi, she is simply a part of the political machine. It is a love built at once on something natural and something self-interested. The only thing that prevents their love is a slowly antiquated authority, which, once Luke Skywalker is born, proves that the Order had erred greatly. Many Luke Skywalkers could have been created had the Jedi not banned reproduction. They cannot embrace the beauty of change. Rather than perpetuating their power, the Jedi voluntarily chose to weaken it, preventing the existence of great men.

The Jedi probably could have survived. What was really weakening was The Republic. If you want to talk about decadence and natural displacement it makes sense to talk about The Republic. But not so much The Jedi. Even then The Republic were apparently winning the war. But of course by the end of it they were transformed. They had to leverage clones and Jedi at the same time. Turning against nature on one hand while consuming and weakening its greatest guardians on the other.

The Jedi's asceticism is not arbitrary. Again, the idea is becoming one with the force. The corruption that kills them isn't decadence or gerontocracy, it's being led away from their purpose by a commitment to The Republic. The greatest force that weakens the Jedi is that they are misled into conflating natural order with the political order of the republic, and so they die for something that isn't theirs. Maybe The Republic did a lot of good for sentient life and nature, but in Episode 1 we see The Republic impotent before the strongarming of Naboo's society and the ravaging of its nature. The Emperor's machinations do actually empower the central political order to respond to threats of that kind. The Jedi could have been for that, and in a way were until they realised too late the anti-Jedi conspiracy hiding within.

As for Anakin's love, is it divine? What is or isn't divine is a big part of Star Wars. With the final implication arguably being that everything is. George loves imagery of concentric circles and natural forms existing within man-made constructs. I think Anakin's feelings have no real claim to superiority over the asceticism of The Jedi. But the Jedi still tried to prevent such things for the sake of temporal stability and order, which is perhaps commendable. Anakin's potential made him a potent actor whichever way he went. Him falling in love was like a chaotic chemical reaction with massive consequences. I think this interpretation works better within the greater vision of Star Wars than trying to call it good or bad or superior or inferior. The same could even be said of the actions of the emperor.

And he is not attracted to Padme as some kind of power fetish. He calls her an angel when he thinks she's a handmaiden.

Sorry if this seems oddly staggered, I want to reply to lots of thoughts and am going piece by piece.

Luke's existence does not prove the Jedi wrong. More force sensitive people existing is not an inherently desirable thing, and their emergence seems like a natural phenomena without cultivation. I could imagine in George's mind it was probably decided that the natural rate is what the universe is generally needing at any given time. With Anakin's birth too being a natural (or supernatural) phenomena. The Jedi were not afraid of change. The force at the same time leads them to see the world as constant natural flux, and from here a kind of fatalism makes a rather good deal of sense. They are not afraid of or preventing great men. It's more like that they hold a perspective from which it wouldn't make sense to cultivate them. Stirring the waters for no good reason.

The Sith of course, believe in great men. The Jedi still the waters, the Sith stir them. They're both still ultimately forces at work within an ocean, and there's always a bigger fish.

The trend I see in this thread is hostility towards the Jedi for not being a particular thing. And through that reading them as a failure to be that thing, rather than a success at being something else.

The world before The Empire is one of petty despotism, duplicity, and crime. Waldo and others are the natural result of a Republic which has chosen to ignore its duties, some of whom are invulnerable to the workings of the Force anyway. The Galactic Republic does not manage its power in any absolute way, and meets the consequences of it. This is different with the Sith, having a cyborg like General Grevious in the role of tactician. It is via the voluntary association of the Sith that he has mastered Jedi abilities, becoming a formidable enemy against the Order. I would be remiss if I did not mention Palpatine. He is a political actor who has seen through the mirage of the Jedi, and acknowledges its feebleness. The film portrays him as a unscrupulous conspirator, always working behind the scenes to persuade Anakin (or, putting it another way, using psychological suggestion to force his love with Padme). I prefer to see him as someone who realizes the grand potential of Anakin, the perfect specimen that can destroy the weakened Jedi and institute a new Empire. Qui-Gon did not live long enough to combat Anakin's desires/ambitions, but would certainly do what Obi-Wan did. The Sith are nothing more than efficient men who have trained their power and find their world wanting. Many struggles, many battles, are never begun; sterile power is the rule. If a Great Man should exist, separatism and a Clone War must occur.

I said that The Republic were not The Jedi, but perhaps were somewhat related in a few general principles and habits and inclinations. The same is true of the Empire and the Sith. But they are perhaps closer.

The Emperor sees the potential in Anakin. But look what he reduces him to. A crippled prisoner in his own body his life is unending regret and pain. The Emperor I'm sure admires nice things, and in his own way is capable of taking pleasure in cultivation. But he absolutely does not see this as a duty. At most it's a happy accident that so much goodness and order is potentially able to rise in his wake. For his own aggrandisement and the sheer pleasure of wielding power he will build impressively and efficiently. And he will also destroy. He is a truly selfish character, for better and worse. I will at least somewhat defend him as a political force on Moldbuggian grounds. He has a natural incentive to do a lot of things that need doing. Far more than the senate did.

And I wouldn't call the Jedi sterile by comparison. More like static perhaps. They aspire towards the complacence of nature.

The Sith association is one that is genuinely concerned with the use of power, and is in some ways, more honest than the rule of the Republic. Its use of Clone Troopers when the Empire is instituted is because a mass mobilized force has proven to be of galactic use during the Clone Wars. Nothing has yet contested the use of Droids and Clones, it is only the principal powers like the Jedi that are called into question after the fact. If anything, the orchestrations of Palpatine in creating the Clone War are a way of proving that the values of the Jedi are hollow. When the Jedi reacts to the developments of the Empire after it is instituted, it acts in support of a retrograde existence, where interstellar conquest and absolute control over territories is rejected for the sake of useless peace. As always, it trains its newcomers to irrational ends, everything related to love, domination, and perpetual war squandered. That the Disney sequels revive the Empire proves that the Jedi must inevitably be extinguished, because there is a permanent necessity for the Empire to exist. As long as there are promises of greatness (through the midichlorians), an Anakin Skywalker will continue to be born, chosen to inaugurate a better future.

Here I think I can agree because we're talking about The Republic. The Jedi are justified by the completeness of their vision. They can't be wrong. You can just agree or disagree. The Republic however, suck, on their own terms. The Sith-led Empire is justified by its clear-eyed vision of power and its comfort with its own intentions. Again, where I think the Jedi go wrong, is when they come to identify with The Republic. Obi Wan confidently states that he's loyal to Democracy. Why should that be so? The Jedi are nature. They still the water. Is nature democratic? Not really. But there's been a long war going and those things have a way of making very unclear issues look very clear.

Last thought. Again, you can call the Jedi direction in life irrational. But from their point of view, the Great Man is irrational.

[GoldenOstrich]

You have introduced politics and metaphysics to my exposition on pedagogy, which is acceptable because the discussion should inevitably reach this stage but I must insist on the primacy of pedagogy.


The Jedi are integrated as a corporation with the Republic at large. They hold offices of political diplomat and political advisor. In the course of war they gain office in military leadership. One might insist that the order is something timeless, disembodied, and more spiritual than its actual politically integrated version with the Republic but this does nothing to their reality. They do indeed leverage their power as reputation to acquire institutional reproduction. 


The Jedi in their guardianship of the Republic are adoptive aristocrats in the best sense, while the Sith are adoptive monarchists. Adoption because they don’t replace themselves with their natural own. 


Sensitivity is equated to power in both orders.The George-Kreis tests this with poetry readings in front of other members. IQ doesn’t do enough, the ability to test with it comes way too late. Much potential is lost. Genetic testing at birth with knowledge of “intelligence genes” would serve us well.. 


The pursuit of power is intrinsic to both orders. The Sith and the Jedi are mimetically not so different. The integration with mass-politics is only in the Jedi way. The Sith don’t hold office for the public. 


As for modes of pedagogical “emancipation”:
The Sith kill their masters and possibly enter a state of temporary solitude, a time for renewal.
The Jedi have a final “exam”, often a great deed for the republic at large qualifies as this test. Then they receive the status of co-master. 


The Jedi are a Bund. The Republic is a Reich. The Sith are lovers where the more active, vital partner kills the more passive, less vital partner.


Ascetology
The problem as John points out is that the Jedi practice in addition to their asceticism of the strong an asceticism of the weak: limitation of natural reproduction and chastity - they limit eros in its bodily form.
Priestly asceticism, those who moralise about excitement and stimulation - think power - and are themselves to incompetent to manage themselves so deny it to others, in contradistinction to the strong asceticism. Vulgar nietzscheans think that there is an escape from asceticism, when the actual question lies in the telos of the askesis.
The ascetic morality of the Sith functions in service to the will to power of the agent.
The Jedi hold back from violence which can be an artificial hindrance, a censorship of the will. The ascetology of the Sith is different, they can’t fulfil their erotic goal because theirs is a murderous one, but is not the pursuit of power a more noble pursuit than the pursuit of truth? The Sith are radical partisans of Science and progress, so they have to accept the pursuit of power as a fundamental precondition. The Jedi are static, sclerotic and weak. The Sith know that the sphere is dead. Nothing circular will save us.

[Svevlad]

Both sides are kind of idiotic in regards to their organizational and incentive structures. Both present degenerated forms, but in a different manner.

The Jedi are basically blind dogmatists. They are terrified of harnessing the full potential of the Force, because they fundamentally believe that every person is a weak-willed degenerate, and the instant they tap into any sort of emotion to bolster themselves, bad juju will turn them into evil, depraved, perpetually butthurt imbeciles - the Sith are to blame for this, as in their case, it's incentives.

The Sith are not only unnecessarily unstable due to the "Rule of Two," but also due to their dogged insistence that eliminating any self-control and basically transmogrifying into a human shitbull is the way to go - because everyone knows that the most base of emotions are the most powerful motivators. You're not going to find the Sith being motivated by some admirable urge or emotion. Any actual higher aspiration beyond mere self-aggrandizement and profit is crushed. The best thing in life is to be a super-powerful scheming crook. This worked for Palpatine, who did everything he did to simply become the strongest guy for no other reason than to become the Emperor and gloat. However, Anakin never really gave up on his ideals. He's always been motivated primarily by the wish to create a better world. By killing Palpatine and therefore completing the Sith rule of two, and then rejecting their spirit, he has resolved the dilemma. Both sides are no longer adequate, and haven't been for eons.

Though the Sequel trilogy was an atrocity, this very important point is reiterated in the book burning scene. The ghost of Yoda, the "most Jedi of the Jedi" comes to the same realization. Let it all burn. Both groups have degenerated beyond all possibility of repair. Both have turned into the equivalent of IQ shredders, turning their members either into insular, sclerotic hermits; or the individual versions of the Butthurt Belt. Let there be nuance instead of a clear cut between two sides of the same coin.

[anthony]

Both sides are kind of idiotic in regards to their organizational and incentive structures. Both present degenerated forms, but in a different manner.

The Jedi are basically blind dogmatists. They are terrified of harnessing the full potential of the Force, because they fundamentally believe that every person is a weak-willed degenerate, and the instant they tap into any sort of emotion to bolster themselves, bad juju will turn them into evil, depraved, perpetually butthurt imbeciles - the Sith are to blame for this, as in their case, it's incentives.

The Sith are not only unnecessarily unstable due to the "Rule of Two," but also due to their dogged insistence that eliminating any self-control and basically transmogrifying into a human shitbull is the way to go - because everyone knows that the most base of emotions are the most powerful motivators. You're not going to find the Sith being motivated by some admirable urge or emotion. Any actual higher aspiration beyond mere self-aggrandizement and profit is crushed. The best thing in life is to be a super-powerful scheming crook. This worked for Palpatine, who did everything he did to simply become the strongest guy for no other reason than to become the Emperor and gloat. However, Anakin never really gave up on his ideals. He's always been motivated primarily by the wish to create a better world. By killing Palpatine and therefore completing the Sith rule of two, and then rejecting their spirit, he has resolved the dilemma. Both sides are no longer adequate, and haven't been for eons.

Though the Sequel trilogy was an atrocity, this very important point is reiterated in the book burning scene. The ghost of Yoda, the "most Jedi of the Jedi" comes to the same realization. Let it all burn. Both groups have degenerated beyond all possibility of repair. Both have turned into the equivalent of IQ shredders, turning their members either into insular, sclerotic hermits; or the individual versions of the Butthurt Belt. Let there be nuance instead of a clear cut between two sides of the same coin.

Again, I think beliefs are being misread and judged for not being what some of us might want them to be, rather than what they are. Neither side is an overman-generating eugenics project. Neither side is trying to be.

As for episode 8, it could have potentially gone somewhere halfway interesting, but I imagine that the scenes alluding to that possibility were leftovers from one of probably dozens of drafts that movie had.

[Pioneer]

As for Anakin's love, is it divine? What is or isn't divine is a big part of Star Wars. With the final implication arguably being that everything is. George loves imagery of concentric circles and natural forms existing within man-made constructs. I think Anakin's feelings have no real claim to superiority over the asceticism of The Jedi. But the Jedi still tried to prevent such things for the sake of temporal stability and order, which is perhaps commendable. Anakin's potential made him a potent actor whichever way he went. Him falling in love was like a chaotic chemical reaction with massive consequences. I think this interpretation works better within the greater vision of Star Wars than trying to call it good or bad or superior or inferior. The same could even be said of the actions of the emperor.

And he is not attracted to Padme as some kind of power fetish. He calls her an angel when he thinks she's a handmaiden.

He calls her an angel because he's a nine-year-old plagued by visions of the future his entire life. By this point he's already foreseen himself marrying her and he's seen himself leaving Tattooine and returning to free his fellows in bondage (In my personal interpretation, part of him is also seeing the tragedies yet to unfold at this point, breeding anxieties that reach a fever pitch in Episode III). There is no attraction in the earthly sense of the term, because their love is Destiny/the Force made manifest. Anakin's Jedi training gives him a reference point to understand the visions, but their recommendation for dealing with them is a kind of passive acceptance. The allure of the Sith for Anakin is a way to fight against the currents of fate, possibly even diverting its course. Especially alluring for him since his visions of his mother dying as a consequence of him leaving the planet came true.

But, here I am ignoring the subject of pedagogy...

[Uguroza]

The Sith Code:
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Honestly the Kotor 1 and 2 games were great, but that shitty MMO had some excellent story writing for the Sith classes.

Lucas has always wanted this to be a simplistic good vs evil. However the best starwars content is from all the 3rd party contributions.
Starwars may have never been as good as it is if the universe was dictated purely by Lucas, as we see the results of how Disney has fucked it up.

[anthony]

The Sith Code:
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Honestly the Kotor 1 and 2 games were great, but that shitty MMO had some excellent story writing for the Sith classes.

Lucas has always wanted this to be a simplistic good vs evil. However the best starwars content is from all the 3rd party contributions.
Starwars may have never been as good as it is if the universe was dictated purely by Lucas, as we see the results of how Disney has fucked it up.

I disagree. The kotor stuff just turns them into D&D "factions". Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic Evil garbage. The Jedi too. The theology of the force is basically gone as far as I remember and it's reduced to secular normalfag baby's first genre fiction power politics and philosophy. The Jedi become basically the UN who have vaguely pro-social goals they die for because they have nothing better to do while the sith are just these kinds of angry petulant hedonists. Now I never touched the mmo, and only played kotor2 like 15 years ago, but this is my memory and lasting impression having seen people talk about it since.

None of it's as subtle as The Emperor in Lucas's films. The Emperor is not freed by power or victory. He's freed by perspective. I believe that he has the same universal fishbowl, always a bigger fish perspective of the most wise and mature Jedi, only he takes it in the other direction. The Emperor isn't a secular power-player enlightened by his intelligence or dismissal of dogma. He's not a rebel or an overman or a historic great man. He's perhaps more like a Tibetan Lama.

As we see him no obvious simple passions drive him. He does not feel chained by life. He is not constrained, he does not really want for power. He's very patient and serene looking for the most part, the only emotions we see break the surface are joyful ones when he's winning. We could say that this is an old man's path to power. Cunning and patience, but it seems like he's always been like this considering he quietly aged into political power peacefully. Happy to bide his time cultivating his own explosive potential to act upon the world apparently just for the sake of it. He apparently lives to be a disturbance in the force. But as I've already suggested, is a disturbance a rebellion, something which should not be? Do morality and right or wrong even play into this? Is it not just the nature of the world that things aren't static?

What does it really mean to be beyond good and evil? When I read the lines you've posted above I don't see someone above and beyond it. I see someone who has chosen a side. The Emperor, by contrast, I see as someone playing a far higher game. Moving from a perspective so high that our simple linguistic tools for reading human actions are insufficient to follow him. Just within Lucas's films (I don't even know too much other star wars stuff) there is enough going on to place him above "evil".



Circles within circles. How do you explain this man's existence as an "evil" thing within the context of the will of the force?

To bring it back to pedagogy. What would it mean to teach a Sith? Would it mean the above four lines. "Ditch libtard morality and be your angry self to acquire fuck you money and get guns and a lambo"? KOTOR seems to pretty much suggest that. D&D faction logic. Get points and power because the logic of D&D world (which is not star wars, but is kotor) is that everything runs on static mechanical lines and it's all just numbers all the way up.

Do the above four lines produce the emperor? Or is he running on something finer?

[Uguroza]

I disagree. The kotor stuff just turns them into D&D "factions". Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic Evil garbage.
None of it's as subtle as The Emperor in Lucas's films. The Emperor is not freed by power or victory. He's freed by perspective. I believe that he has the same universal fishbowl, always a bigger fish perspective of the most wise and mature Jedi, only he takes it in the other direction. The Emperor isn't a secular power-player enlightened by his intelligence or dismissal of dogma. He's not a rebel or an overman or a historic great man. He's perhaps more like a Tibetan Lama.

As we see him no obvious simple passions drive him. He does not feel chained by life. He is not constrained, he does not really want for power. He's very patient and serene looking for the most part, the only emotions we see break the surface are joyful ones when he's winning. We could say that this is an old man's path to power. Cunning and patience, but it seems like he's always been like this considering he quietly aged into political power peacefully. Happy to bide his time cultivating his own explosive potential to act upon the world apparently just for the sake of it. He apparently lives to be a disturbance in the force. But as I've already suggested, is a disturbance a rebellion, something which should not be? Do morality and right or wrong even play into this? Is it not just the nature of the world that things aren't static?

What does it really mean to be beyond good and evil? When I read the lines you've posted above I don't see someone above and beyond it. I see someone who has chosen a side. The Emperor, by contrast, I see as someone playing a far higher game. Moving from a perspective so high that our simple linguistic tools for reading human actions are insufficient to follow him. Just within Lucas's films (I don't even know too much other star wars stuff) there is enough going on to place him above "evil".

Circles within circles. How do you explain this man's existence as an "evil" thing within the context of the will of the force?

To bring it back to pedagogy. What would it mean to teach a Sith? Would it mean the above four lines. "Ditch libtard morality and be your angry self to acquire fuck you money and get guns and a lambo"? KOTOR seems to pretty much suggest that. D&D faction logic. Get points and power because the logic of D&D world (which is not star wars, but is kotor) is that everything runs on static mechanical lines and it's all just numbers all the way up.

Do the above four lines produce the emperor? Or is he running on something finer?

OK you fucking worthless british sounding piece of shit. Let me explain to YOU why you are wrong.

1) Lucas portrayed Palpatine as a mastermind manipulator, but also just pure evil for no reason except to be explicitly evil (joker tier evil). 
The comics portrayed him as an absolute troll however with reasons involving his fear of death.
IE: After Palpatine died he had issued a series of hilarious orders which ranged from replacing someone's collection of wine with water, to having a whole planet experience catastrophic weather anomalies to torture the inhabitants.



2) The "D&D Factions" you mentioned as being a problem is a sign of you being a fucking retard. All D&D tried to do was label these things, they didn't invent it. When Hollywood movies features a bad guy do you think they go into D&D to define them? No. Nobody does that you fucking white nigger.



However the games always broke away from the main movie plot and introduced tons of new and interesting things.
They don't necessarily apply to Lucas and his original D&D Absolute Good vs Absolute Evil designs he was pushing.
Truly Lucas was making this to be far less deep and the ideas of Jedi and Sith were barely touched upon aside from being just GOOD and EVIL.

Only the 3rd party media broke away from the idea that you need to be pure evil to be sith, and you need to be pure good to be jedi.
That is the fact you will take into your ass Anthony, you will always do a nightly enema to remind yourself how full of shit you are for your D&D take.
You lawful neutral piece of shit. I hope you roll dice everyday before you make decisions so you can see if you succeed or fail to cope.

Disney sadly has taken this far more seriously, following more into the bland dynamic of good vs evil to the point that it hurts.
Anthony, as a true fan of Disney Starwars you must be so happy to see them remove the idea of people being complex and multifaceted, keeping it simple for your low IQ white monkey brain where RED = BAD cause D&D's 9 way system was too chaotic.

Fucking nigger.

[anthony]

1) Lucas portrayed Palpatine as a mastermind manipulator, but also just pure evil for no reason except to be explicitly evil (joker tier evil). 
The comics portrayed him as an absolute troll however with reasons involving his fear of death.
IE: After Palpatine died he had issued a series of hilarious orders which ranged from replacing someone's collection of wine with water, to having a whole planet experience catastrophic weather anomalies to torture the inhabitants.

This is your standard of interesting? Or an improvement? Lucas's Emperor is a master manipulator, but "evil" is a judgement you're bringing into this. "He's afraid of death" is uninteresting. It's a full stop on this thing. The movies keep this open (I'm not saying open is inherently good) with prompting and enough information to draw this out and see roughly where he's coming from. He is not a bad and clever person. He is a practitioner of a theology which leads to radically different places to the way of the Jedi (who we might call good if we want to be simple, but Lucas doesn't).

2) The "D&D Factions" you mentioned as being a problem is a sign of you being a fucking retard. All D&D tried to do was label these things, they didn't invent it. When Hollywood movies features a bad guy do you think they go into D&D to define them? No. Nobody does that you fucking white nigger.

They didn't invent it, but they did formalise the trends and reduce them to mechanically reproducible forms for mass productions devoid of personal character. D&D is a tool for creation without personal expression. Which is what Star Wars is after Lucas. When Hollywood movies feature bad guys they generally draw from a mental or actual list of stock types which are functionally D&D in that they do what I just described. They don't mean anything.

However the games always broke away from the main movie plot and introduced tons of new and interesting things.
They don't necessarily apply to Lucas and his original D&D Absolute Good vs Absolute Evil designs he was pushing.
Truly Lucas was making this to be far less deep and the ideas of Jedi and Sith were barely touched upon aside from being just GOOD and EVIL.

Only the 3rd party media broke away from the idea that you need to be pure evil to be sith, and you need to be pure good to be jedi.
That is the fact you will take into your ass Anthony, you will always do a nightly enema to remind yourself how full of shit you are for your D&D take.
You lawful neutral piece of shit. I hope you roll dice everyday before you make decisions so you can see if you succeed or fail to cope.

Disney sadly has taken this far more seriously, following more into the bland dynamic of good vs evil to the point that it hurts.
Anthony, as a true fan of Disney Starwars you must be so happy to see them remove the idea of people being complex and multifaceted, keeping it simple for your low IQ white monkey brain where RED = BAD cause D&D's 9 way system was too chaotic.

By the point of these games the "sith" and the "jedi" are reduced to something I could recreate by asking chatGPT to create a "sci fi RPG setting" for me. The Sith are just self interested edgelords. And their "interesting" element is the bare amounts of self interest. "Wow, they actually get something out of acting like this". Which shouldn't be notable, but many people still write their "villains" as deranged psychotics addicted to pointless destruction who are also somehow organised and representing a worldview. Pretty sure I remember being shown Malak killing his own subordinates for no reason in KOTOR 1 by somebody when we were talking about this general tendency.

But yes, they also have guys who aren't pure evil. Maybe some sith guy has kids to feed and got bullied by the other students at jedi school or something. That's really not interesting. The Emperor is not pure evil. He's above the retarded canned standards of D&D writing. If Lucas's characters look bland the complexity is lost on you. If KOTOR looks interesting you're an idiot.

[Uguroza]

Lucas, simply created a collaborative scifi universe. However you are treating him as a God, instead of accepting he was honestly a retarded autistic person. He simply brought something to existence no more than chris chan creating sonichu.

You are literally in the double digit IQ range, arguing that because Lucas never elaborated in depth on a character must mean they are super fascinating. While I don't think Palpatine was at all a terrible character, he served his purpose well. His complexity was nonexistant, and if it was elaborated on, it didn't really make it better. He was just an evil guy who looked evil and did evil things, and was meant to represent evil. He is literally the Voldmorte of Starwars so your smooth brain can understand this.

If you want to say you liked the aesthetic choices, sure yeah. However you are talking about CHARACTER.
Were you to be discussing art direction, or designs, and even the way things were chosen to be then I'd agree with you.

However you are dead set on arguing that a background prop hardly touched upon is some of the deepest shit you've ever seen, like hold on let me get VaatiVidya to give you the rundown for my "This is the Dark Souls of character design" british nigger.

The reality is that while Lucas did set the ground work, many of the best things to exist involving Starwars was due to the collaborative nature Lucas encouraged. Which then lead to both good and bad additions.

Palpatine was just an evil old man, the new trilogy made him just evil, and everything after that has only reinforced that. Is it bad that he was so simple? No, but fuck you for trying to argue it being the best written character on the face of the earth.

But yes, they also have guys who aren't pure evil. Maybe some sith guy has kids to feed and got bullied by the other students at jedi school or something. That's really not interesting. The Emperor is not pure evil. He's above the retarded canned standards of D&D writing. If Lucas's characters look bland the complexity is lost on you. If KOTOR looks interesting you're an idiot.

[Guest]

Lucas, simply created a collaborative scifi universe. However you are treating him as a God, instead of accepting he was honestly a retarded autistic person. He simply brought something to existence no more than chris chan creating sonichu.

“George Lucas literally only invented Starwars, one of the highest-grossing film franchises worldwide. Starwars Episode IV - A New Hope, which was released in 1977, only generated over 775 million U.S. dollars at the global box office. I mean what are over 100 video games, 12 movies, 8 animated series, and endless merchandise like books,  comics, toys, clothes, household accessories, etc? Disney only gave George Lucas a measly $4.05 billion for the rights to his franchise. This is comparable to Chris-Chan because uh memes or something.”

Dumb illiterate nigger.

[anthony]

Lucas, simply created a collaborative scifi universe. 

No he didn't you nigger. He created a cinematic epic and allowed people to share his ideas and work and spin it in their own directions because he is a benevolent God. And more seriously, he's actually a rather independent artist. And an artist's artist. He understands how hard it can be to get anything cool done in the creative world and has always wanted to help other people establish themselves. He was always happy to let people use Star Wars as a platform to pursue and develop their own crafts. Remember LUCASARTS? He has sponsored the creation of more than just more Star Wars.

The most impressive non-Lucas star wars works to me were always the video games. In those we could see something most resembling Lucas's own spirit being channeled and pursued. There were trails being blazed there, with Star Wars being an excuse, or a platform, for great original work. The Dark Forces and Jedi games were particularly fantastic in my opinion. Also Battlefront of course. Works that stand as classics in their own fields, which use parts of Star Wars but with their own original work and visions.

I see it like Robert E. Howard and friends sharing mythos rather than a collaborative work. True artists who respect each other know that there isn't really any stealing, someone can't make your work for you. If they did it it's theirs. So it's interesting to see what someone else does with the same thing as you, and there's no harm in it.

Today of course, particularly neurotic times, I think the main fuss with this stuff is canon. What is official. The concern being that someone else will do it wrong and have it be official. You mention Disneywars like that matters. Star Wars is George Lucas because George Lucas is a man and an artist and judging his work as essentially connected to anybody else's wouldn't make sense.

I don't think Lucas actually cares about canon. I imagine if we were to ask him to talk about this he would say that he considers star wars to be his movies. The rest we could call fan fiction, or perhaps more particularly stuff for fans. Nobody writing Star Wars: Jedi Academy gave a shit about formal additions to the plot I suspect, but making the game Star Wars let them use some cool ideas and imagery, make a game in a unique way, so that's cool. Even as a kid (I had this game when I was 8 or so I think) I never thought of this as what Luke did after the movies. It's just a cool thing with stuff from the movies.

[quote pid="9884" dateline="1695287639"]
However you are treating him as a God, instead of accepting he was honestly a retarded autistic person. He simply brought something to existence no more than chris chan creating sonichu.

[/quote]

American moment. Who isn't a retarded autistic person to you? Do you just hate everyone who has done anything? Next are you going to tell me Hideo Kojima is also retarded or would that make this too obvious? And as has been said elsewhere on this forum, Chris Chan has more value as an outsider artist and weird guy who makes stuff than most people do in whatever they're into.

[quote pid="9884" dateline="1695287639"]

You are literally in the double digit IQ range, arguing that because Lucas never elaborated in depth on a character must mean they are super fascinating. While I don't think Palpatine was at all a terrible character, he served his purpose well. His complexity was nonexistant, and if it was elaborated on, it didn't really make it better. He was just an evil guy who looked evil and did evil things, and was meant to represent evil. He is literally the Voldmorte of Starwars so your smooth brain can understand this.

[/quote]

All of Star Wars is connected. The complexity is all around him. The elaboration isn't necessary because the details are hidden and implied everywhere. Statements on the force taken together make it very hard to interpret anything as blankly evil. There is a clear invitation to think of all events and actions in the films from a theological perspective. The Force is an objectively real thing in these films, and functions like an impersonal will of God. Something between a God and a supersentience of the entire universal biosphere. At that scale what is evil? What is a man in black robes who killed people in brown robes to the universe? Why does Lucas have his characters talk about ecosystems and biospheres in the prequels? Why is the emperor's throne staged like the nucleus of an atom? How many ways can we read "There's always a bigger fish?"

[quote pid="9884" dateline="1695287639"]

If you want to say you liked the aesthetic choices, sure yeah. However you are talking about CHARACTER.
Were you to be discussing art direction, or designs, and even the way things were chosen to be then I'd agree with you.
However you are dead set on arguing that a background prop hardly touched upon is some of the deepest shit you've ever seen, like hold on let me get VaatiVidya to give you the rundown for my "This is the Dark Souls of character design" british nigger.

[/quote]

VaatiVidya is stupid because he's a lore guy. He has no respect for the creative wills behind the things he's looking at. Basically no ability to appreciate art because he can't conceptualise a human having created what he's looking at for a reason. It's all just randomly generated D&D Modules. And he likes the ones with mysteries, which exist solely to entertain idiots like him who lurk 4chan threads to collect theories to pretend they came up with.

What I do is not that. I only find Star Wars interesting as far as it is an expression of its creator, George Lucas. Vaati is a tool who as far as I know has not acknowledged that half of the shit his theories rest on was made up by localisers (not the original creators). I go into this much detail with Star Wars because, having investigated a bit (largely spurred and directed by the excellent work of Rick Worley) I have found that Lucas talks about these things. Never directly, but enough to make it clear where his interests lie and what his intentions were in a broad sense.

Lucas is a filmmaker, not a lore guy. Everything he wanted to say he wanted said in cinematic language. Ideally you should be able to watch Star Wars and more or less understand it without listening to the words. Like a silent film (the films are packed with allusions to older films, including many silent ones). The way things look, recurring images, symbols, this is how Lucas talks to you.

The reality is that while Lucas did set the ground work, many of the best things to exist involving Starwars was due to the collaborative nature Lucas encouraged. Which then lead to both good and bad additions.

Palpatine was just an evil old man, the new trilogy made him just evil, and everything after that has only reinforced that. Is it bad that he was so simple? No, but fuck you for trying to argue it being the best written character on the face of the earth.

Star Wars is a collaborative work, in the sense that craft and raw labour was a distributed effort. It's very big. This is necessary and inevitable. Was there no creative input from others? Of course not. Many other people contributed to the vision as well as the realisation. But the strongest will which guided everything and gave Star Wars its true direction and shape was always Lucas.

Palpatine was an evil old man, who was somehow empowered by the living conscience of the universe to do what he did. That same force apparently allowed Luke to undo him. That is interesting to me. And more than simply evil and good.

[Unformed Golem]

I disagree. The kotor stuff just turns them into D&D "factions". Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic Evil garbage. The Jedi too. The theology of the force is basically gone as far as I remember and it's reduced to secular normalfag baby's first genre fiction power politics and philosophy. The Jedi become basically the UN who have vaguely pro-social goals they die for because they have nothing better to do while the sith are just these kinds of angry petulant hedonists. Now I never touched the mmo, and only played kotor2 like 15 years ago, but this is my memory and lasting impression having seen people talk about it since...

One good idea that KOTOR had regarding Sith vs Jedi was a long-term perspective. In KOTOR, we see the Sith expanding from an openly ruled planet. Disappointingly the Jedi Order wasn't much different from the prequels, but we do see a form of mass pedagogy with Sith characteristics and (in the further past) councils of Sith Lords. The "rule of two" is not always transiently true -- a master could take more than one apprentice, perhaps to encourage competition, but then they do the same, and so on. Perhaps this all boils back down in the end to The Master and the Student singular but this could take time, generations.

The KOTOR Jedi Council is at least a less bureaucratic body than what we see in the prequels. As other posters have alluded to, the prequel Jedi were fatally identified with the political project of the Republic. They occupy a well-staffed office in a prominent building in the center of civilization. But Lucas certainly thought of them as something like wandering samurai (the Force substituting for their hereditary caste status) in A New Hope. I would go even further and speculate that "the Republic" should be thought of as the Imperial House: an establishment of ancient existence with functions and authority that varied immensely over time.