Yes, I agree with Anthony here... [I am different Guest]
I will add another bit: Pacing. Those games like Final Fantasy and so on all benefit from an increased digestion time. Turn-based combat...Random encounters...Walking the world...All moments where larger gears can turn and bits are broken down and firmly SET into the mind of the player.
Novels and so on CAN do the same thing...But it is up to the reader to enforce a longer digestion time (either by slow reading or re-readings.)
Now I will diverge: I am a GAMEPLAY-fag. I believe the basic gameplay should allow the player to enter that in-between, almost unconscious place. Point and click can do this...If it is well-made. As can turn-based. Something like Death Stranding does it well too. Of course, action types can and should enable this state as well. "Shallow" or "Deep" matters less than the simple enabling of this state. It is a similar state to walking in nature.
That said, this sort of gameplay leans on the art-work and music heavily. An ugly game must never be touched. It is a betrayal of the form.
VN's enjoy their place due to the delightful art styles. Simple often. Yes, with many similarities. But such is delight. On the other hand, I have seen some "Indie" VN-type games from the West that are simple abominations. Of course, they are often praised. Eyes see from the body and if the body is lacking...
Still, a VN follows more literary practices for digestion and pacing. Chrono Trigger, all FFs, all SMTs, would be very strange as novels. Disjointed, jarring. Life is like this too, life is not like novels. It involves many days where perhaps nothing occurs of note, before some event happens. Or perhaps you are born into time of great shifting and everyday could be the subject of a novel. Yes, I know some authors do mundanity well. I believe they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Other examples of mundanity generally come with some device of tittilation.
I recommend choosing an RPG and playing it over an exceedingly long time...with brief moments of play and then long breaks...to see the digestion effect in action for yourself. I recommend the same with a novel, even if it is a novel you have read before. With a game, it is better if it is novel. The mind churns at strange speeds. Note, I may simply be retarded, follow this advice at your own risk.
Open world is cursed or blessed by the fate of having no pace. The player must choose it himself. Elden Ring is an example. If you try to "clear the map", then I can see it being painful. I did this at first...but it was tedious. Later I simply pushed towards some goal or another. Leaving things unseen. I will never replay the game, I will never see these things. But this choice benefitted the pace of the game. In the end, I stopped playing before the "ending".
Much of gaming is also about "builds". Elden Ring's build finishes quickly, far before the world is finished. It is similar with WRPG's. Builds are enjoyable, but they are divorced from other parts of the game. Recently I tried Pathfinder, and the game loses all enjoyability once you have "solved" the system. Every build, every choice, is the same (unless you willfully choose weakness.) JRPG's do not suffer or benefit from builds in this way. In games like the Tales series, you will continue to receive tools, or continue to develop tools until the end. Your "build" is generally simple and built from swappable parts (no cost for swapping.) It assuages the ego less, and allows for tighter difficulty settings (more "risk".) This risk extends to narrative naturally. This is a meandering post, but hopefully there is something of interest within it (even if just for disagreement, mockery, etc.)
(01-24-2023, 02:29 PM)Guest Wrote: I will add another bit: Pacing. Those games like Final Fantasy and so on all benefit from an increased digestion time. Turn-based combat...Random encounters...Walking the world...All moments where larger gears can turn and bits are broken down and firmly SET into the mind of the player.
Novels and so on CAN do the same thing...But it is up to the reader to enforce a longer digestion time (either by slow reading or re-readings.)
Yes, I've always recognised this as the main purpose of "combat" and "encounters" in "JRPG"s. The things aren't there to be hard. They provide an experience of struggle and scale along the way. This creates a greater sense of size of the story and world, and also serves to punctuate key moments. A flow and rhythm is created. I think that the old final fantasy games did a very good job of feeling big using very rudimentary tools.
Where I take issue with this is when the principle is still applied even when we have far more advanced tools. For example, the nu God of War games are full of "encounters" about as rich in meaning and engagement potential as old Final Fantasy random encounters. You don't open a menu and select "attack", but you might as well from the look of it. I think this should be considered unacceptable after the release of something like Death Stranding which created a aesthetically harmonious long-form "in between" thing for you to spend most of the game doing. I guess the game is called "God of War" so the game should be about violence and characterised mostly by it, but the thing is none of it feels like war or violence. It all looks like chores. While Death Stranding, which is a game actually about doing chores, feels like an expressive piece of work in which no part is just there to occupy your time unless you want it to.
I think I basically agree with what you've said about this "in between" state. A game that isn't just a junk-toy should aspire to make that meaningful. It's another potential tool, not always an obligation.
Quote:I recommend choosing an RPG and playing it over an exceedingly long time...with brief moments of play and then long breaks...to see the digestion effect in action for yourself. I recommend the same with a novel, even if it is a novel you have read before. With a game, it is better if it is novel. The mind churns at strange speeds. Note, I may simply be retarded, follow this advice at your own risk.
Worth noting that JRPGs are made for Japanese people, a point which might seem blindingly obvious here, but I see the point lost on a lot of people in various ways in other discussions. Where I'm going is that Japan, especially Japan of 90s and 2000s, was a pretty heavy duty culture. These games would be built largely for people with only so much free time, and an ability to play coherently in small pieces over a long period of time would be a strong feature and selling point. I think that a lot of games work really well this way. Not necessary, but it works. The long format of most "JRPG"s, with their heavy use of "in-between" states, seem probably more suited to this than anything else.
anthony pls, I understand what a video game made after the 70's is about, you don't have to explain how it has both noninteractive bits and interactive bits.
Generally the problem with JRPGs (and the modern moviegame that usurped JRPGs dominance over cinematic gaming) is that both the interactive and noninteractive parts are subpar. They're pretty good at getting players attached to what's happening but once you've banished the immersion spook all you have left is a bad management puzzle with a bad anime stapled on top of it.
"Your use of the term "shallow" interests me. Which part do you mean? If you say you'd prefer a VN I'm inclined to think you mean the game parts ("gameplay" god help us) are shallow. From there we can ask what the problem is. Is shallow bad? Do we need more depth? Less frivolous use of mechanics? Fewer of them?""
Yes.
Shallow is the opposite of deep and Depth is simply the size of the MEANINGFUL game space, or to put it into a formula: The game's complexity or all available options minus all redundant options.
Most popular JRPGs are shallow because gameplay comes down to following a very simple tactical formula with the occasional minor deviation to account for enemy gimmicks.
re: other guest
"I am a GAMEPLAY-fag"
I don't believe you.
"That said, this sort of gameplay leans on the art-work and music heavily. An ugly game must never be touched. It is a betrayal of the form."
I grow in confidence.
"Much of gaming is also about "builds""
Builds are a management puzzle, most RPGs are shallow (see above what this means) and the management puzzle only serves to drip dopamine into your brain because you see numbers going up. But removing choices from the equation can only improve things if the base gameplay has depth, so Dork Souls could be improved with gutted RPG elements while Chrono Trigger would become even less of a game.
anthonypost 2:
You're basically going on about how to best lull the mind into tolerating what's essentially keys jangling in front of your face, this is ultimately a pointless exercise since these things affect people in different ways and only serve to distract from discussing the tangible quality of the subject.
Guest, I will simply say that I doubt you have my credentials as a gameplay fag. I was ranked in Brood War ICCUP B+. Not the greatest feat, but still enough to filter you (most likely.) Additionally, I was fairly good in CAL-O Counterstrike. I am curious what you think has "depth". Most games are very easy. You are given a system, and you solve it. They are designed to be beaten. If you want depth, then PVP is the only thing that has it...Due to humans being much more difficult to solve compared to machines.
Anyway, I look forward to what games you nominate as "deep". I somehow doubt that any of them will come close to brood war.
In spite of all the time I spent on these "deep" games, would you like to know the truth? The truth is that JRPG's are far more satisfying. Competition is better in the physical world.
Yeah Brood War's pretty good but I'm John Video Games and I invented Video Games.
"In spite of all the time I spent on these "deep" games, would you like to know the truth? The truth is that JRPG's are far more satisfying. Competition is better in the physical world. "
A guy with shit taste on the internet, how novel (try reading one).
Yes...your diction surely reveals that your literary experience is vast. You are simply poor in all ways. Some things are hidden from those who cannot see. Enjoy yourself!
(01-25-2023, 10:22 AM)Guest Wrote: anthony pls, I understand what a video game made after the 70's is about, you don't have to explain how it has both noninteractive bits and interactive bits.
I think that explaining something from zero is good mental exercise. Encourages lateral thinking and allows you to identify gaps and holes in your appreciation and understanding. It's for my own sake as much as anybody else's.
Otherwise, your problem with "subpar" elements I can agree with. Yes, things should be good. Boring things are boring. What can be said for this, which I don't entirely hate, is that the Japanese are good at thinking of ways to make people feel very invested in and engaged with less than superb stuff. Land of Gacha and a million generic JRPGs most of which are dull. But still, money has to come from somewhere, keeps craft and industry alive. Robust self sufficient japanese entertainment industry is a good thing.
Quote:Shallow is the opposite of deep and Depth is simply the size of the MEANINGFUL game space, or to put it into a formula: The game's complexity or all available options minus all redundant options.
Most popular JRPGs are shallow because gameplay comes down to following a very simple tactical formula with the occasional minor deviation to account for enemy gimmicks.
I dislike talking about video games as "games" because it encourages some people to think that the meaning has to be in that part, that it's the most essential. In JRPGs I believe that the "gameplay space" or whatever you want to call it is full of junk, bloat, and generally a mess if viewed as a mechanical tool to simulate combat or create interesting puzzles or whatever. But I think it's plain that most of the time these things are meant to be subordinate to the greater experience. Something like the ability to walk down an empty alleyway in Shenmue is not "redundant". It's selling you this experience of wandering an urban space.
If I call Killer7 a JRPG (I don't see why I can't) it's a jrpg with extremely shallow "gameplay". It's literally on rails. But I think most people wouldn't feel confident calling it a shallow game.
anthony and the "GAMEPLAY-fag" guest's opinions about video games are the most accurate, in line with my lived experience, rational thought, and the writings of Alex Kierkegaard. Please register an account!
"Yes...your diction surely reveals that your literary experience is vast. You are simply poor in all ways. Some things are hidden from those who cannot see. Enjoy yourself! "
Kewl argument fgt.
"It's for my own sake as much as anybody else's."
Verbal masturbation tends to fall into the former camp for the most part.
" Land of Gacha and a million generic JRPGs most of which are dull. But still, money has to come from somewhere, keeps craft and industry alive. Robust self sufficient japanese entertainment industry is a good thing."
Actually no, turning video games into an industrial dopamine extraction operation isn't a good thing, even if it got us some decent anime.
"But I think it's plain that most of the time these things are meant to be subordinate to the greater experience."
The "greater experience" depends on getting addicted to the dopamine drip and/or falling for whatever immersive experience the game is trying to craft, if you don't get hooked then all that's left is the 90% of the game that's made up of bad gameplay.
It's great that you mentioned Shenmue because that's a terrible game that's only remembered because QTEs were still a novel idea back then.
"(I don't see why I can't)"
Die
(01-26-2023, 01:35 AM)Guest Wrote: "It's for my own sake as much as anybody else's."
Verbal masturbation tends to fall into the former camp for the most part.
" Land of Gacha and a million generic JRPGs most of which are dull. But still, money has to come from somewhere, keeps craft and industry alive. Robust self sufficient japanese entertainment industry is a good thing."
Actually no, turning video games into an industrial dopamine extraction operation isn't a good thing, even if it got us some decent anime.
"But I think it's plain that most of the time these things are meant to be subordinate to the greater experience."
The "greater experience" depends on getting addicted to the dopamine drip and/or falling for whatever immersive experience the game is trying to craft, if you don't get hooked then all that's left is the 90% of the game that's made up of bad gameplay.
It's great that you mentioned Shenmue because that's a terrible game that's only remembered because QTEs were still a novel idea back then.
"(I don't see why I can't)"
Die
Has it ever been suggested to you that you seem to have a principled aversion to pleasure?
>masturbation
>dopamine
>dopamine
>hooked
Why I raise that is I'm curious what you believe is the value of a better game by whatever standard over a worse one.
(01-26-2023, 01:35 AM)Guest Wrote: Actually no, turning video games into an industrial dopamine extraction operation isn't a good thing, even if it got us some decent anime.
How does seeking to perform rote actions without regard for things like aesthetic motifs contradict the Pavlov carrot-chasing you're raising? If you enjoy that shit, at least be honest about it.
ONLY GAYMPLAY MATTERS YOU GRAPHICS WHORE
PLAY CELESTE AND GO (BOARD GAME, DEEPER THAN CHESS)
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