Video Game General

[anthony]

Not too many years later I think Farcry2 did this 100x more interestingly. You get a general instruction and a mark on your map, then you get set loose. Job done when some guy kilometers away is dead, no further instructions or signals or handholds.

Deus Ex is another strong example. The game is script driven, but due to heroic dedication to the idea of self-determination just about anything you could think of doing is accounted for and allowed to play out to some kind of logical conclusion. Both in individual action challenges and greater plot-driving decisions.

I started playing Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl for the first time recently and it does that same thing very well. You get instructions to go find a guy and are lead through a structured path through areas, but how you get there is totally up to you. There's some exploring within each area you can do. I'm enjoying the game a lot so far and it has a great setting.

I've never played any of the Deus Ex games, where would you suggest starting with the series?

With the first one. Then you've got the complete experience. The others only sort of got it and didn't turn out as interesting.

[Barbary Pirate]

Something I think looks promising is a title currently in development at NewBlood, called Gloomwood. It's a very blatant callback to the first 2 Thief games with some aesthetic influences from other places (Call of Cthulu: DCotE, Bloodborne, Resident Evil 4), while also borrowing some game mechanics from them. The developer seems to be focusing on developing systems conducive to emergent gameplay as well as orienting level design towards that end. I played the demo for myself and enjoyed it. There is something to be wary of though, considering NewBlood's personal tendencies and politics. But if those don't end up interfering with the gameplay, I feel it could provide a very good spiritual successor to the original Thief, especially if the developer puts out a level editor kit and provides mod support, which is likely.

In the same vein, I think one of the best places to find emergent gameplay is in games like Ultima Underworld and System Shock. I also played the demo for Nightdive's remaster of the first System Shock and found it to be compelling. There's also a game I'm interested in with an available demo that I have not taken the time to complete, that being Monomyth, but from what I did experience in the demo it is clunky and needs refinement.

Also exciting for me is the recently released SDK for Halo: Combat Evolved (which offers improvements over what was previously possible with Custom Edition) as I always found the combat loop to be very satisfying, especially on legendary difficulty (it's worth noting that of all the pre-343 Halo titles, CE has what is arguably the best game balance for its legendary difficulty setting), and I think that custom levels/campaigns could breathe new life into the game. The weapons sandbox could maybe use some rebalancing (as it is, the needler and assault rifle are very underpowered), but it's overall very solid, and it feels like every weapon has its purpose.

[Illustrious]

Despite the criticisms levelled by the fans of the series, I found MGS V to be a shining example of emergent gameplay. Enjoyed the shit out of it, replaying missions doing something different each time is its own reward. It's on the easy side but you can fine tune it with mods to make it as hardcore as your needs demand.

The nu-Hitman games aren't bad in this respect either, although something about them feels off to me, even with all the casual stuff disabled. I think I don't enjoy the map design of them entirely.

[oecolampadius]

I quite like elden ring, started with the knight class (vagabond) for the high health. Got pretty far using the starter longsword (ashes of war are cool) until I unlocked respec and then made a caster build.

The last game I enjoyed before elden ring was cyberpunk 2077. I know it's buggy and kinda pozzed but it's fun to just put on the jazz station and drive 150mph in the badlands. I also liked how the whole story was about finding a way to reconcile with the fact that you will inevitably die.

[anthony]

Despite the criticisms levelled by the fans of the series, I found MGS V to be a shining example of emergent gameplay. Enjoyed the shit out of it, replaying missions doing something different each time is its own reward. It's on the easy side but you can fine tune it with mods to make it as hardcore as your needs demand.

The nu-Hitman games aren't bad in this respect either, although something about them feels off to me, even with all the casual stuff disabled. I think I don't enjoy the map design of them entirely.

I absolutely loved MGSV. It felt like a great culmination of what Metal Gear was always about. War as a liberating, challenging, and enfranchising opportunity.

[Frank]

I think Morrowind hit the sweet spot with easy-playability and enough RPG elements where you actually have to pay attention to your build; magic is annoying early but is a huge pay off later.

Morrowind's magic system is one of the few examples I can think of that accurately captures the feeling of playing a mad sorcerer tinkering with forces more powerful than he could possibly comprehend. Most fans know that at a certain point with alchemy, you can drink a potion that makes you smarter, use that intelligence buff to create a better intelligence potion, and so on until you ascend to godhood by your own bootstraps like the Tribunal. It's not just plausibly canon, it's even suggested by the mage falling to his death event early on: On one level it's a way for the devs to tell the player "athletics can get you up, but not back down safely," but on another level it introduces players to the idea of skills and stats not being exclusively a slow grind to some max level. What starts as a way to fortify your combat performance becomes the ascension to something higher than any mortal creature. Once you have a hundred different potions of God-like intelligence stocked up, you can do just about anything you want with magic. Make yourself untouchable. Obliterate anything in one swing of a butter knife. Jump clear across the island, bombing whole cities with destruction spells. This power will get to your head. In your ecstasy you may just forget the "land safely" potion/spell and you end up dying a poetic death, same as that master alchemist who fell to his death in front of you back when you were just a novice.

The only other one I can think of is Cultivation Simulator, a game that looks like a Chinese Rimworld ripoff on the surface, but what lies beneath is utter insanity that I can't begin to describe.

[anthony]

I think Morrowind hit the sweet spot with easy-playability and enough RPG elements where you actually have to pay attention to your build; magic is annoying early but is a huge pay off later.

Morrowind's magic system is one of the few examples I can think of that accurately captures the feeling of playing a mad sorcerer tinkering with forces more powerful than he could possibly comprehend.

You ever played anything by Illwinter? In particular Dominions? Imagine Morrowind Magic, but now it's a multiplayer 4x game. It's like the ultimate arms-race and ingenuity is a genuine driving force. Pretty much impossible to create a static meta because the possibilities are so deep.

[Sharmat]

Been enjoying MGS2 recently; pleasantly surprised by how modern the game feels. While delivering the story in a more direct and impactful way (so far) MGS1's mechanics were largely limited by the hardware, leading to somewhat shallow stealth gameplay. MGS2 completely surpasses it's predecessor by introducing enemy behavioural cycles, new methods of traversal and interactions with the enviroment that play both into normal gameplay and bosses. This all plays out in a restricted and semi-linear map, so part of the satisfaction of the game is feeling out the best way to get past obstacles with the full extent of your abilities in mind. That being said, the story is somewhat of an issue, as I've hinted above. Cutscenes drag one for way too long, with no way to pause. The overarching narrative is almost a carbon copy of the first game without the charm of fox hound. Many of the plot points are just plain ridiculous and are clearly afterthoughts in order to keep the franchise going. I've heard the MGS2 story is particularly good so I'm holding out for a possible change in opinion, but so far I'm not particularly impressed.

[anthony]

Been enjoying MGS2 recently; pleasantly surprised by how modern the game feels. While delivering the story in a more direct and impactful way (so far) MGS1's mechanics were largely limited by the hardware, leading to somewhat shallow stealth gameplay. MGS2 completely surpasses it's predecessor by introducing enemy behavioural cycles, new methods of traversal and interactions with the enviroment that play both into normal gameplay and bosses. This all plays out in a restricted and semi-linear map, so part of the satisfaction of the game is feeling out the best way to get past obstacles with the full extent of your abilities in mind. That being said, the story is somewhat of an issue, as I've hinted above. Cutscenes drag one for way too long, with no way to pause. The overarching narrative is almost a carbon copy of the first game without the charm of fox hound. Many of the plot points are just plain ridiculous and are clearly afterthoughts in order to keep the franchise going. I've heard the MGS2 story is particularly good so I'm holding out for a possible change in opinion, but so far I'm not particularly impressed.

You understand the key idea, which is that the style of the game is iterative. A deliberate refinement of what MGS1 did. Trust the plan and keep going with this in mind.

[doppelbanger]

I don't play FPS, RPG, or story driven games anymore since I don't have time for them, but I do occasionally enjoy strategy games. Most recently I've been playing Europa Universalis. You start the game in 1446 and play until 1820 (although I've never actually played all the way through). It's basically a map painting game. I've been having fun trying to own all the provinces around the Mediterranean Sea. A bit hard to get started but it has a good wiki and that combined with watching a couple youtube videos got me over the initial hump and to the point where I was having fun.

I occasionally play indie games as well, and the best recent one has been Return of the Obra Dinn. It's a murder mystery set on a British East India Company ship where you have to figure out how everyone on the ship died. The game has a clever mechanic that I've never seen done before and the art, music, and story are all very well integrated.

[anthony]

I don't play FPS, RPG, or story driven games anymore since I don't have time for them, but I do occasionally enjoy strategy games. Most recently I've been playing Europa Universalis. You start the game in 1446 and play until 1820 (although I've never actually played all the way through). It's basically a map painting game. I've been having fun trying to own all the provinces around the Mediterranean Sea. A bit hard to get started but it has a good wiki and that combined with watching a couple youtube videos got me over the initial hump and to the point where I was having fun.

I occasionally play indie games as well, and the best recent one has been Return of the Obra Dinn. It's a murder mystery set on a British East India Company ship where you have to figure out how everyone on the ship died. The game has a clever mechanic that I've never seen done before and the art, music, and story are all very well integrated.

I had a great time with Obra Dinn. Gets amazing value out of a novel premise. Perfect self contained and complete experience. One of those rare 'indie' games that doesn't just feel like a regression of mainstream ideas. A genuine outlier project doing something great.

[FruitVendor]

Anyone here beat Sekiro? Best Combat hands down next to BB but goddamn it was difficult it probably took years off my life.

[Opossum]

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 is the greatest video game ever created. I will accept no argument here.

[kevin]

Anyone here beat Sekiro? Best Combat hands down next to BB but goddamn it was difficult it probably took years off my life.

Yes, it’s a great game. The fact that you have a set amount of health and don’t level up the traditional way makes it hard as well as the combat. The final boss, who has 3 or 4 phases, was very satisfying to beat. For me, it is the hardest of the souls games, having played them all. Since discovering them it’s hard for me to play anything else since they’re just in a different league altogether.

[Guest]

I want to ask Amarnites, what do you think of Chris Avellone’s Knights of the Old Republic II?

[anthony]

I want to ask Amarnites, what do you think of Chris Avellone’s Knights of the Old Republic II?

I had that one growing up. The idea of a dialogue-driven rpg was still super novel when I got it so I had a great time just on that factor. Also loved Star Wars and found the familiar but not all the same as the movies setting cool. As for how it played, I largely don't remember. Just facerolled through combat because I didn't understand RPGs and probably would have preferred a Jade Empire style action game with level ups and specialisations rather than something driven by dicerolls and skills and the rest. The story I also don't really remember beyond finding it cool that I could be an asshole or jedi jesus moment to moment. Very engrossing to choose dialogue and such. The bigger picture I only vaguely remember, I'd probably find it lame now since so much of it seems to have revolved around a general disgust towards the exercise of power of any kind.

Would be interested in hearing if anybody else played the game and has more particular thoughts.

[Leverkühn]

I want to ask Amarnites, what do you think of Chris Avellone’s Knights of the Old Republic II?

I had that one growing up. The idea of a dialogue-driven rpg was still super novel when I got it so I had a great time just on that factor. Also loved Star Wars and found the familiar but not all the same as the movies setting cool. As for how it played, I largely don't remember. Just facerolled through combat because I didn't understand RPGs and probably would have preferred a Jade Empire style action game with level ups and specialisations rather than something driven by dicerolls and skills and the rest. The story I also don't really remember beyond finding it cool that I could be an asshole or jedi jesus moment to moment. Very engrossing to choose dialogue and such. The bigger picture I only vaguely remember, I'd probably find it lame now since so much of it seems to have revolved around a general disgust towards the exercise of power of any kind.

Would be interested in hearing if anybody else played the game and has more particular thoughts.

I'm a huge fan of both KotOR 1 and 2, and I probably put around 100 hours into The Old Republic MMO for nostalgic reasons during the pandemic. Knight of the Old Republic II is by far the best out of all of them, and had a pretty compelling story, with really great characters. The only issue is that there was some kind of rush to finish the game, or lack of funding, so a lot plans for the game had to be outright cut or condensed. But I'm saying that despite the semi-obviously rushed nature of the game, it's still a gem, and possibly my favorite Star Wars game I've ever played. It's without a doubt my favorite Star Wars story, with the original Knights of the Old Republic as my second favorite.  As for the gameplay, like you said it's nothing special. A semi-real time, turn-based rpg with dicerolls and all that stuff. Unless you plan on playing the hardest difficulty you don't have to worry about your builds too much, there's a lot of leeway there. It's never too difficult, and you'll never have to grind for XP. 

But the combat isn't what makes the game great, it's the story and the characters. In a much better manner than the Rian Johnson Star Wars, KOTORII attempts to break the easy dichotomy of 'light side' and 'dark sides' of the force - it's less gnostic and tries to paint the world as layers of grey. IIRC, if the player wishes to play a purely good or purely bad guy, they'll have to make some obviously bad decisions down the line (practically speaking), and face criticism from side characters. The way you interact with side characters is similar to how it works in Mass Effect. You pick them up on an early mission and engage in dialog with them on your ship between major missions (planets). With the way leveling works, there's actually some encouragement to take different characters along with you along your way: their experience completely tracks with yours so the companions you take along will never be under-leveled. Chief among these side characters is Kreia, your mysterious master who is probably the primary person you will be engaging in dialogue. She's an interesting character who is oftentimes the stand-in for what Avellone is trying to tell you to think about: she's constantly calling into judgement what path you decide to take, whether you choose 'lightside' or 'darkside' options. She believes in practicality above all else, but even a totally practical character won't totally elude her criticisms. 

And I actually don't think the bigger picture is about not exercising power. Moreso that any exercise of power has consequences, far beyond our understanding, that we nonetheless have to take responsibility for. In fact, the choice to not make a decisions is pretty explicitly shown to be the worst choice of all. Apathy is death! [link contains major spoilers]. 
 

That's all I'll say for now as I don't know who else has or hasn't played it and I don't want to spoil too much. I'd say if you have any interest in SW lore, currently or for nostalgia reasons, it's a solid game. Basically any modern computer should be able to run it easily. There's a TSL Restored Content Mod you might want to try, it adds in some of the cut content, but I'd suggest not downloading whatever version forces you to do the HK Droid Factory quest. It's tedious and it's probably the one thing that really did deserve to get cut.

[cats]

I recommended Dominions 5 on the last forum, so instead I'll recommend another strategy game, that being Graviteam Tactics: Mius Front. It's a World War 2 game developed by hyper-autistic Slavs with truly revolutionary features underneath layers of jank, as all good Eastern European games have.

It has an operational layer and tactical layer, a bit like how Total War has a GSG and tactical layer, only limited in scope to specific battles and divided by squares. You move units around in the operational layer, then when a battle occurs, you go to the tactical layer. The tactical layer is very simulationist. Terrain deformation, a communication system that actively discourages micromanaging your troops, and highly detailed armored vehicle simulation (the devs used to make tank sims). If you fight a battle in a square you previously fought in, you'll see wrecks, trenches, craters, and corpses from those battles.

Being Slavs, the base game and most of the DLC campaigns focus on the 1941 to 1943 era of the Ostfront. If that's not your thing, they've got DLCs for the South African Bush War, the Iran-Iraq War, and a different game on the same engine with Americans fighting Germans in Tunisia. All good too.

[FruitVendor]

After beating Elden Ring and letting the aftertaste marinate a little bit I've decided it was not as good as I expected.  

DS1 > Sekiro = BB > Elden Ring = DS3 > DS2

'Open world' doesn't fit the Fromsoft atmosphere. I do not enjoy riding around a horse picking up flowers that just drags out the sword+Sorcery on a grassy plain aesthetic that overstayed its welcome after the first boss. Rather than build on the ingenuity of Sekiro and BB's combat system breakthroughs Miyazaki decided to continue with the DS3 rollspam. The bosses are designed around being a dexfag with nonsensical delays to certain attacks on top of bosses having invulnerabilities to the point where the only way to survive is spamming the backjump buttom until the animation is finished. The feeling of combat doesn't give a sense of relief upon victory and yearning to fight again in NG+ only a "Holy shit, thank god it's over". When a fromsoft game is inseason PvP is always a blast and the only part I'm enjoying right now but I'm probably gonna do a charmless belldemon Sekiro run or an arcane build in BB in the future when it wears off.

[Frank]

Really got into Dominions 5 on @anthony 's rec a week or two ago. Dominions is one of those games I had sitting on my hard drive for years and years but never felt motivated enough to touch, but I just got Dom5 and I'm glad I did. One thing I really like is that the combat strikes the right balance between Civilization "smash two units together and roll a die" and Total War "tactical timesink". Even the light scripting you can do for fights has a ton of depth. Normally I hate lore obsession but every part of it is fascinating: The multitude of myths intertwining, the rise and fall of empires being blocked out into distinct eras of gameplay, and mundanity gradually ruling the world amid a battle between gods. Naturally I'm trying (and failing) to play the most interesting of these nations.


And by interesting I mean amusing.